Enclomiphene and E2

TLawyer · Feb 7, 2021

Are there any studies that show the E2 levels after certain doses of enclomiphene? I see studies that address Testosterone levels, but I can't seem to find one that actually measures the effect on E2 levels.

Cataceous · Feb 8, 2021

They did measure estradiol in one of the studies. Unfortunately this particular report doesn't quantify the results. It just says:

Testosterone treatment of men with testosterone deficiency usually increases serum estradiol levels, and may increase hGH and IGF-1 levels. Estrogen is known to potentiate secretion of hGH and IGF-1 levels. Enclomiphene citrate increases serum estradiol levels.

Without the numbers we don't know if the increase is simply due to higher testosterone, or if the aromatization rate has also increased. For me, using enclomiphene does not seem to have increased the rate of aromatization, but it's too little data to be sure.

TLawyer · Feb 8, 2021

Cataceous said:
They did measure estradiol in one of the studies. Unfortunately this particular report doesn't quantify the results. It just says:

Testosterone treatment of men with testosterone deficiency usually increases serum estradiol levels, and may increase hGH and IGF-1 levels. Estrogen is known to potentiate secretion of hGH and IGF-1 levels. Enclomiphene citrate increases serum estradiol levels.

Without the numbers we don't know if the increase is simply due to higher testosterone, or if the aromatization rate has also increased. For me, using enclomiphene does not seem to have increased the rate of aromatization, but it's too little data to be sure.

Any thoughts on how we could get the actual study (which I hope would list actual E2 values) and not just the summary? My every day use of 12.5 mg definitely raised by E2 in the mid-50s (but also raised by total and free testosterone to good levels), but I'm trying to get a sense of what I might expect from every other day dosing before I go down that path. My hope is it would keep my T levels in a good place but perhaps drop the E2 a bit so that I don't need to use an AI.

Cataceous · Feb 8, 2021

Here's a related study that does give some estradiol information. The dose is 25 mg daily. I'm not sure what conclusions can be drawn:

"Use of either enclomiphene citrate or testosterone gel resulted in increases in estradiol which were more pronounced for enclomiphene citrate and lead to significantly higher levels after 6 months of treatment (P = 0.01)."

I'd encourage you to try EOD dosing. I am somewhat preferring it myself.

TLawyer · Feb 8, 2021

Cataceous said:
Here's a related study that does give some estradiol information. The dose is 25 mg daily. I'm not sure what conclusions can be drawn:
View attachment 12867
"Use of either enclomiphene citrate or testosterone gel resulted in increases in estradiol which were more pronounced for enclomiphene citrate and lead to significantly higher levels after 6 months of treatment (P = 0.01)."

I'd encourage you to try EOD dosing. I am somewhat preferring it myself.

Thank you very much! My takeaway is that there does really seem to be an additive effect for both T and E2 levels - it's a big jump from 3 months to 6 months. The T and E2 numbers at the 5 month mark on the chart mimic where I was at the 3 month mark, so I wonder if both T and E2 have increased even more since then. Also looks like perhaps the T has more fluctuations and falls sooner after stopping treatment than the E2. I can definitely feel my E2 increase over the course of a week, primarily by the oiliness/softness of my skin and definite moodiness/emotional and EQ. As soon as I take 0.125 mg of AI, the next day everything gets better and stays that way until about day 2.5, then I get the same symptoms.

Do you have numbers that show the impact of you going from ED to EOD frequency?

JA Battle · Feb 8, 2021

Are you not dosing the enclomiphene daily?

TLawyer said:
Thank you very much! My takeaway is that there does really seem to be an additive effect for both T and E2 levels - it's a big jump from 3 months to 6 months. The T and E2 numbers at the 5 month mark on the chart mimic where I was at the 3 month mark, so I wonder if both T and E2 have increased even more since then. Also looks like perhaps the T has more fluctuations and falls sooner after stopping treatment than the E2. I can definitely feel my E2 increase over the course of a week, primarily by the oiliness/softness of my skin and definite moodiness/emotional and EQ. As soon as I take 0.125 mg of AI, the next day everything gets better and stays that way until about day 2.5, then I get the same symptoms.

Do you have numbers that show the impact of you going from ED to EOD frequency?

Cataceous · Feb 8, 2021

TLawyer said:
...
Do you have numbers that show the impact of you going from ED to EOD frequency?

Not yet, and my results may not be that informative for those on monotherapy. The combination of TRT + enclomiphene + GnRH lets me make my own gonadotropins. It wouldn't surprise me if the switch to EOD enclomiphene has somewhat reduced LH and FSH. However, if anything the subjective results are better. This is pure speculation: perhaps there's some advantage in clearing out the enclomiphene before the next dose. Its short half-life means that serum levels can get pretty low.

TLawyer · Feb 8, 2021

JA Battle said:
Are you not dosing the enclomiphene daily?

I have been dosing ED and throwing in an AI every 2 - 3.5 days to see what works best, but trying to see if going to EOD might help lessen the use of the AI or avoid it all together.

TLawyer · Feb 8, 2021

Cataceous said:
Not yet, and my results may not be that informative for those on monotherapy. The combination of TRT + enclomiphene + GnRH lets me make my own gonadotropins. It wouldn't surprise me if the switch to EOD enclomiphene has somewhat reduced LH and FSH. However, if anything the subjective results are better. This is pure speculation: perhaps there's some advantage in clearing out the enclomiphene before the next dose. Its short half-life means that serum levels can get pretty low.

Yeah, using a 10-hour half life, I calculated that it has cleared out of your system in about 100 hours or so.

TLawyer · Feb 8, 2021

TLawyer said:
I have been dosing ED and throwing in an AI every 2 - 3.5 days to see what works best, but trying to see if going to EOD might help lessen the use of the AI or avoid it all together.

I will say that I have experienced good results, both objectively and subjectively, combined with the use Ibutamoren. My body feels great, body composition has improved, better mood and libido. When I am hitting sweet spots with my E2, it's all very good, so I'm just trying to find a good way to keep it in the sweet spot (without using AI's if possible).