E2 Management via ED Injections - Question for CoastWatcher

[MegaTurd]

I PM'd CoastWatcher to get the specifics on his injection protocol and he suggested posting the question in the forum in case it's a relevant to anyone else.

CoastWatcher was on an E3.5 day injection protocol... 60mg/injection. His estradiol went from 31 to 55 and he was opposed to using an AI, so he switched to ED injections of 16mg and he indicated that his E2 now sits between 25 and 30 and he feels great.

I experienced something similar. Was on an 40mg E3D protocol of just cypionate (100mg/week). I inject with a 1/2" needle at 90 degrees into my quads and delts so essentially shallow IM. My labs the day of my injection:

Testosterone - 2 serum measurements (878 and 921)
Free T - 28.2
SHBG - 37.8
Standard Estradiol - 44.3
Sensitive Estradiol - 40.8 ****standard and sensitive not too far off - interesting
DHT - 71
Prolactin 6.6

My symptoms: some back acne, feel crappy as I approach the next injection (E following T), suffer from soft erections.

Like Coastwatcher, I too am opposed to taking an AI and I'm considering an every day protocol in order to manage my E2. I asked Coastwatcher if he could lay out the specifics of his injection protocol. In a previous thread he indicated his injections could be shallow IM or SQ and that he rotated all over the body. I suspect that he's injecting SQ but looking for clarification.

Questions for Coastwatcher:

1. What length of needle and angle do you inject?
2. Are you pinching the skin?
3. Where are you injecting... is there fat there?
4. You mentioned preloading... how do you store your filled syringes?
5. Just to confirm.. you feel good... no adverse side effects or E2 symptoms?

Thank you for taking the time to help a brother out! Hope this helps other folks in the same boat.

 

[johndoesmith]

You had 2 total testosterone labs done simultaneously, drawn at the same time? Same thing with standard and sensitive E2?

Post lab ranges too.

Have you considered lowering your dose a little bit before going to daily injections? Maybe 900 is a bit too high for you, especially since it is trough.

 

[MegaTurd]

Yes... T/free T pulled with a separate T along with standard and sensitive estradiol. Standard Labcop ranges: T (348-1197) standard E2 (7.6-42.6), Sensitive E2 (8-35).

Yes... in addition to considering ED injections, I'm considering lowering and sticking to a 30mg E3D protocol.

 

[johndoesmith]

Yes... T/free T pulled with a separate T along with standard and sensitive estradiol. Standard Labcop ranges: T (348-1197) standard E2 (7.6-42.6), Sensitive E2 (8-35).

Yes... in addition to considering ED injections, I'm considering lowering and sticking to a 30mg E3D protocol.

I am very very curious here, can you do me a favor and post a screen shot of the results? I'd love to see the exact tests like ECLIA vs LC/MS/MS for test.

Try the 30mg first, you have room to lower dose before doing ED injections.

 

[Vince Carter]

If it were me, I wound't lower my Cyp dose for this. I think your trough actually stands to go up some but that's just me. What I'd do to bring down Estrogen would be to consider OTC stuff like DIM or Calcium-D-Glucarate. Anastrozole is not a bad thing, it's just over prescribed and over dosed. It would be reasonable to consider dosing of .10 or .15mg BIW for a small down trend of E2. You need a small almost surgical change to bring your E2 down and I'd be conservative to that approach.

Also I think your SHBG belies anything dailies is going to do. or not do.

 

[johndoesmith]

If it were me, I wound't lower my Cyp dose for this. I think your trough actually stands to go up some but that's just me. What I'd do to bring down Estrogen would be to consider OTC stuff like DIM or Calcium-D-Glucarate. Anastrozole is not a bad thing, it's just over prescribed and over dosed. It would be reasonable to consider dosing of .10 or .15mg BIW for a small down trend of E2. You need a small almost surgical change to bring your E2 down and I'd be conservative to that approach.

I am always of the opinion that less drugs > more drugs. That's just my opinion here lol.

Not everyone needs to be tippy top of the range especially if they're not feeling good.

 

[Vince Carter]

Advising the guy to drop from 100 to 70mg per week is ill-advised, given the ester he's likely only going to get 55-60mg, total. You have to find the break point of enough Cyp to be of benefit, too. If a drop is what he's looking for 90mg/week would be a far better spot than advising him to cut it by 30mg.

 

[johndoesmith]

Advising the guy to drop from 100 to 70mg per week is ill-advised, given the ester he's likely only going to get 55-60mg, total. You have to find the break point of enough Cyp to be of benefit, too. If a drop is what he's looking for 90mg/week would be a far better spot than advising him to cut it by 30mg.

Well technically, he's on 93.333333333 mg per week already.

I do agree that 70mg per week seems low, although this guy seems to have a really good response to testosterone seeing as 93mg per week puts him at 900 total.

Maybe 35mg per injection E3D? That's 81.6666667 mg per week.

 

[CoastWatcher]

I PM'd CoastWatcher to get the specifics on his injection protocol and he suggested posting the question in the forum in case it's a relevant to anyone else.

CoastWatcher was on an E3.5 day injection protocol... 60mg/injection. His estradiol went from 31 to 55 and he was opposed to using an AI, so he switched to ED injections of 16mg and he indicated that his E2 now sits between 25 and 30 and he feels great.

I experienced something similar. Was on an 40mg E3D protocol of just cypionate (100mg/week). I inject with a 1/2" needle at 90 degrees into my quads and delts so essentially shallow IM. My labs the day of my injection:

Testosterone - 2 serum measurements (878 and 921)
Free T - 28.2
SHBG - 37.8
Standard Estradiol - 44.3
Sensitive Estradiol - 40.8 ****standard and sensitive not too far off - interesting
DHT - 71
Prolactin 6.6

My symptoms: some back acne, feel crappy as I approach the next injection (E following T), suffer from soft erections.

Like Coastwatcher, I too am opposed to taking an AI and I'm considering an every day protocol in order to manage my E2. I asked Coastwatcher if he could lay out the specifics of his injection protocol. In a previous thread he indicated his injections could be shallow IM or SQ and that he rotated all over the body. I suspect that he's injecting SQ but looking for clarification.

Questions for Coastwatcher:

1. What length of needle and angle do you inject?
2. Are you pinching the skin?
3. Where are you injecting... is there fat there?
4. You mentioned preloading... how do you store your filled syringes?
5. Just to confirm.. you feel good... no adverse side effects or E2 symptoms?

Thank you for taking the time to help a brother out! Hope this helps other folks in the same boat.

You're already receiving advice from other members, so I will respond to your specific questions. But first, can you tell me how long you have been on your protocol?

I inject at a 90 degree angle and don't pinch the skin. I use an insulin syringe at the present time, but have in the past used a 27 gauge needle (not what I'd suggest for the long term). I am fairly lean so there is little fat, meaning these tend to be shallow IM injections. Since I travel, I preload up to a week at a time, seven syringes.

I do feel good, I feel very good. As I've pointed out many times, my goal was to avoid an AI, not because they are bad drugs, far from it, but because if I could avoid another medication - eliminate a variable - my protocol would be less complex. Simplicity is good. My doctor and I discussed it at some length, the ester weight, the chances of achieving robust levels (true, steady state levels) on a small daily dose, and the ability to stick with a daily injection schedule. It all came together.

In theory, it should work for everyone, but this is testosterone replacement therapy...nothing works for everybody. All of us present with unique, physiological challenges and I have no doubt that some men will be disappointed with their results on a daily protocol. But it has brought me great satisfaction.

 

[MegaTurd]

Appreciate the feedback thus far!

I belive 40mg E3D averages out to 100mg per week over the course of time. I am a patient of Dr. Saya... I'll be discussing this with him tomorrow to get his thoughts.

 

[CoastWatcher]

Appreciate the feedback thus far!

I belive 40mg E3D averages out to 100mg per week over the course of time. I am a patient of Dr. Saya... I'll be discussing this with him tomorrow to get his thoughts.

Dr. Saya has written here on the question of daily injections and steady-state serum levels. You are getting the best of care. Let us know how this works out.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Just my 2 cents. In my opinion, injecting a testosterone ester daily is an overkill. These esters will designed for such a half life that daily dosing is not required.

Also, thinking that an erection is a two dimensional phenomenon that only involves T and E2 is a little too simplistic.

I know these statements are not popular, but you guys know me by now.

 

[CoastWatcher]

Just my 2 cents. In my opinion, injecting a testosterone ester daily is an overkill. These esters will designed for such a half life that daily dosing is not required.

Also, thinking that an erection is a two dimensional phenomenon that only involves T and E2 is a little too simplistic.

I know these statements are not popular, but you guys know me by now.

I agree with you completely in regard to your comment on erectile function...but found the daily protocol to work wonders for me.

 

[Jay]

I would add that guys (like me) with very low SHBG, the T is in-and-out quick. When I was on 160 mg per week, in 2 shots per week, my total T was 425. I went to every day and total went up to 931. Kinda a big difference.

 

[MegaTurd]

Here's an update following my discussion with Dr. Saya. As I stated, like CoastWatcher, I'm looking to avoid having to rely on an AI to manage my E2. Dr. Saya is aware of this. He also agreed it was logical at this point to work with one variable at at time so for the next 8 weeks, I'll continue with using only cypionate. Dr. Saya suggested dosing 16mg every day... same as CoastWatcher (though he also includes HCG). The goal right now is to get E2 under control so we'll see if this works. My only concern... will daily injections get old quick... only time will tell.

Hoping to see improvement with the following:back acne, soft erections, some nipple itch, some bloat, an inability to sleep more than 6 hours, some bitchiness (the further I am from T injections - E following T).

In principle, I agree with Nelson... how we feel (including our physical symptoms) is represented by a composite of so many various systems and pathways within the body... yet... many of the symptoms I'm dealing with tend to be the result of elevated E2 and my E2 is clearly elevated even on my trough day so no telling where I sit earlier in my 3 day period between injections. I think it makes sense to target one thing at a time so E2 it is. Hopefully a lower dose more frequently will result in less conversion to E2.

Stay tuned...

 

[MegaTurd]

Also... Dr. Saya did not think my SHBG of 37 precluded me from ED injections as the goal is to minimize the T peak and thus conversion to E2.

 

[johndoesmith]

Here's an update following my discussion with Dr. Saya. As I stated, like CoastWatcher, I'm looking to avoid having to rely on an AI to manage my E2. Dr. Saya is aware of this. He also agreed it was logical at this point to work with one variable at at time so for the next 8 weeks, I'll continue with using only cypionate. Dr. Saya suggested dosing 16mg every day... same as CoastWatcher (though he also includes HCG). The goal right now is to get E2 under control so we'll see if this works. My only concern... will daily injections get old quick... only time will tell.

Hoping to see improvement with the following:back acne, soft erections, some nipple itch, some bloat, an inability to sleep more than 6 hours, some bitchiness (the further I am from T injections - E following T).

In principle, I agree with Nelson... how we feel (including our physical symptoms) is represented by a composite of so many various systems and pathways within the body... yet... many of the symptoms I'm dealing with tend to be the result of elevated E2 and my E2 is clearly elevated even on my trough day so no telling where I sit earlier in my 3 day period between injections. I think it makes sense to target one thing at a time so E2 it is. Hopefully a lower dose more frequently will result in less conversion to E2.

Stay tuned...

You're getting advice from probably the best person you can. follow his advice lol. I was off base with my suggestions obviously.

Can you do me a favor here? I am very very curious, can youpost a screen shot of the results? I'd love to see the exact tests like ECLIA vs LC/MS/MS for test that you had drawn simultaneously.

 

[MegaTurd]

 

[CoastWatcher]

Here's an update following my discussion with Dr. Saya. As I stated, like CoastWatcher, I'm looking to avoid having to rely on an AI to manage my E2. Dr. Saya is aware of this. He also agreed it was logical at this point to work with one variable at at time so for the next 8 weeks, I'll continue with using only cypionate. Dr. Saya suggested dosing 16mg every day... same as CoastWatcher (though he also includes HCG). The goal right now is to get E2 under control so we'll see if this works. My only concern... will daily injections get old quick... only time will tell.

Hoping to see improvement with the following:back acne, soft erections, some nipple itch, some bloat, an inability to sleep more than 6 hours, some bitchiness (the further I am from T injections - E following T).

In principle, I agree with Nelson... how we feel (including our physical symptoms) is represented by a composite of so many various systems and pathways within the body... yet... many of the symptoms I'm dealing with tend to be the result of elevated E2 and my E2 is clearly elevated even on my trough day so no telling where I sit earlier in my 3 day period between injections. I think it makes sense to target one thing at a time so E2 it is. Hopefully a lower dose more frequently will result in less conversion to E2.

Stay tuned...

I wish you all the best. It made a world of difference for me.

 

[madman]

I agree with Nelson as I could see using suspension ED or prop E2D but using cypionate or enanthate ED you will get overlap due to the esters half lives.

As Coastwatcher stated his protocol may work for some but not others. No harm in trying it out though.