Coming off trt?

[waterbottle1258@tutanota.]

Been on ugl 150mg Test E per week for 5 years. I started at age 26 after seeing the results of only one blood test. Total T was ~450 ng/dL. See attached. The reason I went on T was for mental health. I wanted to be more confident and to reduce social anxiety. I should have done way more blood work before hopping on.

The first few years on TRT were awesome, though. I'd say my goals of increased confidence worked. I hooked up with a few batshit crazy 19 year old girls (that's why we do this, am i right?) Although I liked going to the gym, I didn't care about the little extra muscle that it gave me.

Fast forwarding to now it's hard to see if my problems come from TRT or just natural aging (One of the downsides of TRT):
going to sleep is terribly difficult
no morning wood
erections don't stay up for very long
social anxiety is still here
I am lazy
I barely leave the house
I rarely go to the gym
I've gained a little belly fat
hair is leaving my head

Unfortunately, I went the ugl route because my numbers weren't low enough and I was young. I've switched suppliers somewhat recently so I am thinking they may have overdosed or underdosed. I am waiting for blood work to come back to me from Quest.

I guess the purpose of this post is to see if it would be worth trying to stop all self diagnosed TRT. My total T was still in the normal range and I really should have backed that up with more blood work. Maybe someone else is going down a similar path?

 

[DFL]

4 years ago at age 50 I started TRT (and HCG) after a divorce. My total T was 477. I was very depressed and not feeling real confident to get back out there so I thought it might help. I believe it did to some extent. However, I also believe it introduced some negative sexual side effects, such as reduced ability to climax, and having to use ED drugs every time I want to have sex. I started TRT between girls and I know the problems did not begin until after I started.

It has taken me 4 years to figure out, after many different protocols, that if I go over 100mg/week I start to lose morning wood, ED drugs start to fail (which I why I have Trimix now), and I have to work a lot harder to get there, if I even can. I changed from 112mg/week to 92mg/week around 6 weeks ago (not the first time I have done this) and things are much better. But I still have to use the drugs. Every time. Obviously you may not get the same result, but it's something to consider.

If I were your age and in your situation, knowing what I know now, I'd go off of it. I tried to last year but after 2 weeks I started getting depressed again. Still, I may try again.

Also, I've dealt with social and general anxiety my whole life, and for me, TRT has little to no effect on it.

 

[waterbottle1258@tutanota.]

I actually started to lower the dose today, like what you have been doing.
You're right. I need to try to come off.

Also, 477 at age 50 aint too bad

 

[Systemlord]

My total T was still in the normal range and I really should have backed that up with more blood work. Maybe someone else is going down a similar path?

I find it very strange that your LH is very high and TT and FT levels were robust! Normally high LH points to testicular failure and normally you would see low-T in these cases.

You didn't need TRT if your TT and FT have anything to say about it. Also your SHBG must be on the lower end which is how your FT can be on the higher end when TT is barely midrange.

 

[DFL]

I actually started to lower the dose today, like what you have been doing.
You're right. I need to try to come off.

Also, 477 at age 50 aint too bad

Yes, not too bad at 477. I didn't need TRT (though my free T was kind of low) but I had some misconceptions of what it would do for me.

 

[waterbottle1258@tutanota.]

Got my nightmare blood results back.

https://imgur.com/a/da6Qqaj

Why is my Total T so low and why is my estradiol 48 (It's on a separate page of the blood results)?
I'm discouraged about continuing TRT since it's basically my pre TRT levels plus high e2. Can bad gear do this?

 

[madman]

I find it very strange that your LH is very high and TT and FT levels were robust! Normally high LH points to testicular failure and normally you would see low-T in these cases.

You didn't need TRT if your TT and FT have anything to say about it. Also your SHBG must be on the lower end which is how your FT can be on the higher end when TT is barely midrange.

Hard to believe you would comment on his FT without stating that it was tested using the piss poor known to be inaccurate direct immunoassay!

For the length of time you spend on the forum this is starting to get downright embarrassing.

 

[madman]

Got my nightmare blood results back.

https://imgur.com/a/da6Qqaj

Why is my Total T so low and why is my estradiol 48 (It's on a separate page of the blood results)?
I'm discouraged about continuing TRT since it's basically my pre TRT levels plus high e2. Can bad gear do this?

What was your protocol (dose T/injection frequency?

150 mg T once weekly?

Were labs done at the trough as we want to test at true trough (lowest point) just before your next injection to see where trough TT, FT, and estradiol levels sit let alone important blood markers such as RBCs/CBC/hemoglobin/hematocrit?

 

[waterbottle1258@tutanota.]

What was your protocol (dose T/injection frequency?

150 mg T once weekly?

Were labs done at the trough as we want to test at true trough (lowest point) just before your next injection to see where trough TT, FT, and estradiol levels sit let alone important blood markers such as RBCs/CBC/hemoglobin/hematocrit?

150mg weekly. Split into two doses. So injecting twice per week.
It was done on trough. The morning of the day of my next injection.
The other blood markers are included in the lab results. May need to scroll

 

[Systemlord]

150mg weekly. Split into two doses. So injecting twice per week.

That might explain the higher E2, being that your average T levels is higher on TRT versus naturally when you are likely significantly lower in the evening compared to in the morning.

 

[waterbottle1258@tutanota.]

That might explain the higher E2, being that your average T levels is higher on TRT versus naturally when you are likely significantly lower in the evening compared to in the morning.

All testing was done in the morning and on a trough day

 

[madman]

150mg weekly. Split into two doses. So injecting twice per week.
It was done on trough. The morning of the day of my next injection.
The other blood markers are included in the lab results. May need to scroll

Highly doubtful your UGL gear is bunk.

Underdosed who knows.

At least you used the most accurate assays for TT/E2 (LC/MS-MS) and FT (Equilibrium Dialysis).

You are hitting a trough TT 535 ng/dL and your SHBG is on the lower end which going by the FT assay used has your FT on the higher end of the reference range for that assay.

Keep in mind these are trough levels and your peak (8-12 hrs post-injection) TT, FT, and estradiol levels will be much higher.

Top it off that your trough estradiol is high

You are injecting 150 mg T split twice-weekly (75 mg every 3.5 days) and there will be a big difference in peak--->trough.

As you can see your RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit is elevated which is a common side-effect when using exogenous T, especially when running higher FT levels let alone peak--->trough levels can have a significant impact.

Keep in mind smoking/sleep apnea can also drive up hematocrit.


Regarding those struggling with high hematocrit here is my reply from another thread:

When using exogenous T RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit will increase within the 1st month and can take up to 9-12 months to reach peak levels.

T formulation, the dose of T, genetics (polymorphism of the AR), age all play a role in the impact a trt protocol will have on blood markers (RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit).

Other factors such as sleep apnea, smoking can have a negative impact on hematocrit.

Injectable T has been shown to have a greater impact on increasing HCT compared to transdermal T.

3–18% with transdermal administration and up to 44% with injection.

In most cases when using injectable T high supra-physiological peaks post-injection and overall T levels (running too high TT/FT level) will have a big impact on increasing HCT.

Manipulating injection frequency by injecting more frequently using lower doses of T resulting in minimizing the peak--->trough and maintaining more stable levels may lessen the impact on HCT but it is not a given.

As again running very high TT/FT levels will have a stronger impact on driving up HCT.

Although injectables have been shown to have a greater impact on HCT you can see even when using a transdermal formulation that maintains stable serum concentrations that the impact it has on HCT is DEPENDANT ON THE DOSE AND SERUM LEVEL OF T.

Using higher doses of transdermal T and achieving higher TT/FT levels will have a great impact on HCT levels.

How high an FT level you are running is critical.

It is a given that most men on trt struggling with elevated RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit are running too high an FT level.

Sure some men are more sensitive than others as they may still struggle with elevated blood markers when running lower T levels but it is far from common and many may already have an underlying health issue contributing to such.

If you are struggling with such blood markers then in most cases finding the lowest FT level you can run while still maintaining the beneficial effects may very well be the solution.

Easier said than done as many men on trt tend to do better running higher-end FT levels within reason.

Mind you some are lucky and never have an issue or levels tend to stabilize over time.

Others will continue to struggle until the cows come home.

Unfortunately too many are caught up in running absurdly high trough FT levels due to the herd mentality spewed on the bro forums and gootube!

 

[BillyJ03z]

FWIW.... I have been on TRT for approximately 12 years..... I was working as a Federal Air Marshal at the time and due to the constant travel, time zone changes, lack of sleep my natural T levels took a hit and I was kind of a walking zombie... So I started on TRT to help balance out my levels... I never had that initial honeymoon of feeling great.... Sleep has gotten progressively worse, sex drive up and down, noticeable cognitive decline over the years (not apparent to others but I can tell as I am/was usually always quick tongued/sharp with my words.. I sometimes feel like I am fumbling to find words when trying to speak eloquently), I find that stimulants which I usually used to get hyped up for working out doesn't work (I never abused stims ever).. Overall I feel kind of blah... I have low SHBG from TRT (prior my SHBG was mid-level) , however, since adding Thyroid to my regimine it has raised my single digits SHB up in low to mid 20's...... I know in the beginning I was overdoing the TRT with 200mg/wk and I tried varying dosages over the years between 100 and 200mgs as well as ed, eod, bi-weekly inj schedule to no avail... I then a few months ago tried lowering my dosages to under 70mg/wk which was worse than all the others, as my muscles felt flatter, physically weaker, and way less energy.... I am now back to 100mg/wk (Cyp/Prop blend) (pure test minus ester) and I feel best on this, not great but better than the rest, but I still have all the problems listed previous... In all honesty, I wish I never started this TRT journey, as cycling AAS once or twice a year prior to TRT was awesome for me.... I am seriously debating coming off TRT completely but I don't think I can handle the crash emotionally, physically, energy wise with my job and family life... I am at crossroads....

 

[waterbottle1258@tutanota.]

FWIW.... I have been on TRT for approximately 12 years..... I was working as a Federal Air Marshal at the time and due to the constant travel, time zone changes, lack of sleep my natural T levels took a hit and I was kind of a walking zombie... So I started on TRT to help balance out my levels... I never had that initial honeymoon of feeling great.... Sleep has gotten progressively worse, sex drive up and down, noticeable cognitive decline over the years (not apparent to others but I can tell as I am/was usually always quick tongued/sharp with my words.. I sometimes feel like I am fumbling to find words when trying to speak eloquently), I find that stimulants which I usually used to get hyped up for working out doesn't work (I never abused stims ever).. Overall I feel kind of blah... I have low SHBG from TRT (prior my SHBG was mid-level) , however, since adding Thyroid to my regimine it has raised my single digits SHB up in low to mid 20's...... I know in the beginning I was overdoing the TRT with 200mg/wk and I tried varying dosages over the years between 100 and 200mgs as well as ed, eod, bi-weekly inj schedule to no avail... I then a few months ago tried lowering my dosages to under 70mg/wk which was worse than all the others, as my muscles felt flatter, physically weaker, and way less energy.... I am now back to 100mg/wk (Cyp/Prop blend) (pure test minus ester) and I feel best on this, not great but better than the rest, but I still have all the problems listed previous... In all honesty, I wish I never started this TRT journey, as cycling AAS once or twice a year prior to TRT was awesome for me.... I am seriously debating coming off TRT completely but I don't think I can handle the crash emotionally, physically, energy wise with my job and family life... I am at crossroads....

At a crossroads here, too. I've been keeping this a secret from my gf and family too which I am not happy about. I have a vacation to florida for a week coming up in which I will have to miss 1 injection. I may have find a way to get HCG/Clomid and use that as a time to go back to natural life.

 

[waterbottle1258@tutanota.]

Highly doubtful your UGL gear is bunk.

Underdosed who knows.

At least you used the most accurate assays for TT/E2 (LC/MS-MS) and FT (Equilibrium Dialysis).

You are hitting a trough TT 535 ng/dL and your SHBG is on the lower end which going by the FT assay used has your FT on the higher end of the reference range for that assay.

Keep in mind these are trough levels and your peak (8-12 hrs post-injection) TT, FT, and estradiol levels will be much higher.

Top it off that your trough estradiol is high

You are injecting 150 mg T split twice-weekly (75 mg every 3.5 days) and there will be a big difference in peak--->trough.

As you can see your RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit is elevated which is a common side-effect when using exogenous T, especially when running higher FT levels let alone peak--->trough levels can have a significant impact.

Keep in mind smoking/sleep apnea can also drive up hematocrit.


Regarding those struggling with high hematocrit here is my reply from another thread:

When using exogenous T RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit will increase within the 1st month and can take up to 9-12 months to reach peak levels.

T formulation, the dose of T, genetics (polymorphism of the AR), age all play a role in the impact a trt protocol will have on blood markers (RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit).

Other factors such as sleep apnea, smoking can have a negative impact on hematocrit.

Injectable T has been shown to have a greater impact on increasing HCT compared to transdermal T.

3–18% with transdermal administration and up to 44% with injection.

In most cases when using injectable T high supra-physiological peaks post-injection and overall T levels (running too high TT/FT level) will have a big impact on increasing HCT.

Manipulating injection frequency by injecting more frequently using lower doses of T resulting in minimizing the peak--->trough and maintaining more stable levels may lessen the impact on HCT but it is not a given.

As again running very high TT/FT levels will have a stronger impact on driving up HCT.

Although injectables have been shown to have a greater impact on HCT you can see even when using a transdermal formulation that maintains stable serum concentrations that the impact it has on HCT is DEPENDANT ON THE DOSE AND SERUM LEVEL OF T.

Using higher doses of transdermal T and achieving higher TT/FT levels will have a great impact on HCT levels.

How high an FT level you are running is critical.

It is a given that most men on trt struggling with elevated RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit are running too high an FT level.

Sure some men are more sensitive than others as they may still struggle with elevated blood markers when running lower T levels but it is far from common and many may already have an underlying health issue contributing to such.

If you are struggling with such blood markers then in most cases finding the lowest FT level you can run while still maintaining the beneficial effects may very well be the solution.

Easier said than done as many men on trt tend to do better running higher-end FT levels within reason.

Mind you some are lucky and never have an issue or levels tend to stabilize over time.

Others will continue to struggle until the cows come home.

Unfortunately too many are caught up in running absurdly high trough FT levels due to the herd mentality spewed on the bro forums and gootube!

Yeah, not too happy with any of my results from this test. Hematocrit can be solved by donating blood regularly and lowering dose I see. However, if I lower my dose I will be right back to ~450 Total T which is where I started 5 years ago. I might as well just come off

 

[CanadaJim]

FWIW.... I have been on TRT for approximately 12 years..... I was working as a Federal Air Marshal at the time and due to the constant travel, time zone changes, lack of sleep my natural T levels took a hit and I was kind of a walking zombie... So I started on TRT to help balance out my levels... I never had that initial honeymoon of feeling great.... Sleep has gotten progressively worse, sex drive up and down, noticeable cognitive decline over the years (not apparent to others but I can tell as I am/was usually always quick tongued/sharp with my words.. I sometimes feel like I am fumbling to find words when trying to speak eloquently), I find that stimulants which I usually used to get hyped up for working out doesn't work (I never abused stims ever).. Overall I feel kind of blah... I have low SHBG from TRT (prior my SHBG was mid-level) , however, since adding Thyroid to my regimine it has raised my single digits SHB up in low to mid 20's...... I know in the beginning I was overdoing the TRT with 200mg/wk and I tried varying dosages over the years between 100 and 200mgs as well as ed, eod, bi-weekly inj schedule to no avail... I then a few months ago tried lowering my dosages to under 70mg/wk which was worse than all the others, as my muscles felt flatter, physically weaker, and way less energy.... I am now back to 100mg/wk (Cyp/Prop blend) (pure test minus ester) and I feel best on this, not great but better than the rest, but I still have all the problems listed previous... In all honesty, I wish I never started this TRT journey, as cycling AAS once or twice a year prior to TRT was awesome for me.... I am seriously debating coming off TRT completely but I don't think I can handle the crash emotionally, physically, energy wise with my job and family life... I am at crossroads....

Also FWIW...I recently stopped self prescribed TRT. I have also been off and on over the last 2-3 years. My symptoms were pretty much the same as yours. I felt great initially after starting weekly injections (75mg) but it waned off and the negatives seemed to outweigh the positives. I did try tweaking the dosages and injection frequencies but nothing seemed to help. My first few stops were "cold turkey". But the withdrawal and shitty feeling weighed in on my decision to start up again. This time I purchased some Clomid and started taking 12.5mg daily a week after my last injection. I upped it to 25mg daily from week 2 and so on. I can tell you that it has made a big difference so far. I know some guys have reported very negative side effects with Clomid but that hasn't been my case at all. I think the side effects may be associated with higher doses (100mg daily) as that is the indicated dose in some PCT protocols. Libido is not where I'd like it but for the most part I feel much better this time then when i tried to stop cold turkey in the past. My "boys" feel like they are back in action (as is the desired effect of Clomid). I plan on continuing this protocol for at least another month. I have blood work coming up in the next few months and plan on coming off Clomid long enough beforehand as to have my overall levels back to my my natural baseline. Anyway, just giving my 2 cents.

 

[waterbottle1258@tutanota.]

Also FWIW...I recently stopped self prescribed TRT. I have also been off and on over the last 2-3 years. My symptoms were pretty much the same as yours. I felt great initially after starting weekly injections (75mg) but it waned off and the negatives seemed to outweigh the positives. I did try tweaking the dosages and injection frequencies but nothing seemed to help. My first few stops were "cold turkey". But the withdrawal and shitty feeling weighed in on my decision to start up again. This time I purchased some Clomid and started taking 12.5mg daily a week after my last injection. I upped it to 25mg daily from week 2 and so on. I can tell you that it has made a big difference so far. I know some guys have reported very negative side effects with Clomid but that hasn't been my case at all. I think the side effects may be associated with higher doses (100mg daily) as that is the indicated dose in some PCT protocols. Libido is not where I'd like it but for the most part I feel much better this time then when i tried to stop cold turkey in the past. My "boys" feel like they are back in action (as is the desired effect of Clomid). I plan on continuing this protocol for at least another month. I have blood work coming up in the next few months and plan on coming off Clomid long enough beforehand as to have my overall levels back to my my natural baseline. Anyway, just giving my 2 cents.

What were your pre TRT bloods and how old were you? TT, FT, SHBG

 

[GreenMachineX]

Also in a similar situation here. Anxiety, insomnia, hematocrit and hemoglobin issues, etc all while on TRT. Haven't taken a shot since Friday and sleeping better already, and that's without any extra sleep supplements. Anxiety improved. The reason my last shot was Friday though was because my HH were scary high, 53.8 and 18.8 (in my opinion, plenty of people disagree though).

I can feel the brain fatigue (as i call it) starting again as I recall that from years ago, and blood pressure is even lower (118/64). Doctor appt is tomorrow to decide which avenue to take next.

 

[CanadaJim]

What were your pre TRT bloods and how old were you? TT, FT, SHBG

Hey, 52 when I started. I am unsure of the numbers of my pre-trt blood work as my Doc (who is no longer my Doc) told me I was "low normal" with regards to testosterone. I had blood work done about 2 months after my first self prescribed "cycle"...the values are as follows;

...estradiol serum - 112 pmol/l normal - less than 162pmol/l
...prolactin 6.8ng/ml - normal 3.5 - 19.4
...TSH - 1.233 - normal - 0.350 - 4.940 mIU/L
...No flags in the CBC/Diff
...Testo - 19.3 nmol/l - - - normal range is 9.5 - 30.0
...Sex horm - 51.8 nmol/l - - - normal range is 11.0 - 50.0
...Testo, bioavail - 7.5 nmol/l - - - normal range is 4.8 - 14.0

 

[CanadaJim]

The above blood work results were 2 months after I had stopped taking testosterone.