Clarification on T to E ratio

[mgsnell]

I have investigated this subject along with what is considered high E2 to the point that I am confused. Perhaps someone can set me straight.

As I understand the T to E2 ratio it is T/E2 and the reference range is 14 -20, I also understand that this is only a guide line as how one feels is more important. I am also under the impression that the range for E2 alone is 20-40 and even higher on some forums.

If the above assumptions are correct then my last labs indicate a T:E2 ratio of 27 (1771/65). Now here is where I get confused. If I look only at E2 then 65 pg/mL would be considered high, however based an prior post in this subject in ExcelMale the ratio of 27 is considered low (this is a partial quote on this subject "....a T:E ratio over 20 indicates low E2 not high E2). These are the 1st labs after 3 months of 100mg of Test cyp divided into twice weekly subqu shots (25mg each). While I have take the advise of some in the forum and reduced my intake to 75 mg once weekly (0.375 cc) and for now stopped the 0.125mg weekly of anastrazole so as not to cloudy up the next labs in 3 months I would like to know if there is a clear answer as to which is it, is my E2 high or low.



Estradiol Ultrasensitive LC/MS/MS range < 29 pg/mL Actual 65 pg/mL
DHT LC/MS/MS range 16-79 ng/dL Actual 152 ng/dL
Hematocrit range 38.5 - 50.0% Actual 48.8%
Hemoglobin range 13.2 - 17.1 g/dL Actual 16.6 g/dL
DHEA Sulfate range 24-244 mcg/dL Actual 115 mcg/dL
Prolactin range 2.0 * 18.0 ng/dL Actual 9.2 ng/dL
PSA range <4.0 ng/mL Actual 3.6 ng/mL
SHBG range 22-77 nmol/L Actual 67nmol/L
Total Testosterone 250-1100 ng/dL Actual 1771 ng/dL
Free Testosterone range 35.0-155.0 pg/mL Actual 224.2 pg/mL

 

[MarkM]

Don’t put to much emphasis on that ratio. It is just numbers and guideline.

Your testosterone numbers are very high as is your estradiol but considering how high your testosterone is you estradiol is not as high as it could be. E follows T.

How do you feel with those big numbers?

 

[mgsnell]

Don’t put to much emphasis on that ratio. It is just numbers and guideline.

Your testosterone numbers are very high as is your estradiol but considering how high your testosterone is you estradiol is not as high as it could be. E follows T.

How do you feel with those big numbers?

I feel a little foggy, and have aches and pains that I don't usually have and ED problems with maintaining an erection other than that, I feel better that I did on clomid. The reason for asking which reference point ratio vs E2 is for future reference. I have read a lot about the symptoms of low and high E2 and frankly I cant distinguish a difference. Feeling foggy and ED and aches and pains seem to be in both catagories.

 

[MarkM]

A sensitive E2 of 65 would not be low E2.

 

[Nashtide]

Your confused because it's confusing! Some believe that the E2 should be in a certain range regardless of the T levels. Others subscribe to the ratio theory. Still others think it should be close to your SHBG. The bottom line is there is no right answer. The only thing you can do is go by symptoms. IMHO, your E2 is too high to be low if that makes any sense. So if you are having symptoms associated with E2 my guess is that you are having high E2 symptoms. Were these labs trough? If so, those are some high T numbers!

 

[mgsnell]

A sensitive E2 of 65 would not be low E2.

That is what I thought but another member posted that a ratio of 27 indicates low E2 so I guess what you are saying is don't use the ratio as a guidline?

 

[mgsnell]

Your confused because it's confusing! Some believe that the E2 should be in a certain range regardless of the T levels. Others subscribe to the ratio theory. Still others think it should be close to your SHBG. The bottom line is there is no right answer. The only thing you can do is go by symptoms. IMHO, your E2 is too high to be low if that makes any sense. So if you are having symptoms associated with E2 my guess is that you are having high E2 symptoms. Were these labs trough? If so, those are some high T numbers!

Yes, I took these labs on the day of injection and before injecting. At the suggestion of others on ExcelMale I have reduced my Test Cyp from a twice a week subque injection of 50mg for a total of 100mg to a once weekly injection of 75mg. This was based on SHBG being high.

 

[Nashtide]

How old are you and what is your body fat percentage?

 

[mgsnell]

How old are you and what is your body fat percentage?

69, 25%

 

[Nashtide]

I asked because age and fat influence aromitization. I'm not an expert, but if I were you, I'd lower the T dose for two reasons. First your T levels are very high and may result in hematocrit issues and second, reducing the T dose will lower E2.

 

[Vince]

Role of Estradiol in Men and Its Management

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/threads/role-of-estradiol-in-men-and-its-management.2309/

 

[DragonBits]

I feel a little foggy, and have aches and pains that I don't usually have and ED problems with maintaining an erection other than that, I feel better that I did on clomid. The reason for asking which reference point ratio vs E2 is for future reference. I have read a lot about the symptoms of low and high E2 and frankly I cant distinguish a difference. Feeling foggy and ED and aches and pains seem to be in both catagories.

It does seem like the symptoms of both low E2 and high E2 are somewhat similar, with most people saying low E2 is far worse. As noted, your absolue level of E2 is high, but your relative ratio of E2 is low.

I am in a somewhat similar situation and similar age, though I measured my TT/E2 (1389/56) at what would be near a peak level. When I test again, if my E2 is still high, I will try a very small AI to see how I feel. I currently feel "OK", but maybe I could feel better, a little hard to tell.

I did gain some water weight (~6 lbs) for 3 weeks, but lost it all in two days, didn't change anything, just waited it out.

I could test TT/E2 right now, but I am going to do a more comprehensive blood test in 3-4 weeks, so I will just wait till then.

 

[Vince Carter]

Given that you've cut the dose to 75mg/once per week I think that any discussion on the labs posted would be pretty pointless as he's already changed the landscape as it were.
Now, ratio or a certain number range are garbage ways to try and manage E. That's IMHO. Just leads to frustration like this here. Symptoms and lab tests have the best success possibilities, but symptoms can be very hard to pin down as some many high/low E mirror one another.