Can we gain mass with light weight and high repetitions?

[Deleted member 43589]

Many of us want to have a ample amount of muscle but as we age we also do not want to stress out our aging joints. I have recognized as I started getting up their in age my goals in the gym have changed from being big and strong to just looking like I am big and strong. However, we all recognize that if we want to be a mass monster; we need to lift that heavy weight, right? But can we maintain a significant amount of muscle mass as we age by lifting lighter reps for higher repetitions and taking it easy on our old joints?.

Time under tension

The term, "time under tension" or TUT for short, refers to the amount of time your muscles are under a load during resistance training. Ideally them more time under tension the better for hypertrophy. So how do we perform the lift? Tempo of training should be a controlled, about1.5 second eccentric movements and explosive concentric movements. A total of maybe 1.5 seconds per repetition. Let's say, you have a max bench press of 315 lbs. As you see below, the time the muscle is under tension pressing 315lbs 1 time for 5 reps compared to pressing 50%1RM for 15 reps is much greater. Not only is there a big difference in the TUT as well as the total volume lifted. Remember, since the weight loads are light rest periods can be cut to about 1 minute further increasing metabolites.

315 x 5 sets of 1 rep – 1575lbs total.. Total time- about 7.5 seconds.​

​

150lbs (50%1RM) x 5 sets of 15 reps – 11250lbs total. Total time about 112.5 seconds​

What does science have to say

There is a compelling body of research that indicates that within wide limits, you build as much muscle from training with relatively light weights as you do from heavier loads. In fact, superior gains have been shown when lifting weights >65% 1RM. How does this happen? Researchers have discovered that fast-twitch fibers *Type II) are progressively activated as a light-load set nears muscle failure, thus indicating that tension is specific to the level of exerted effort. So, if you do a set of 15 reps the 1st few will be easy but as we reach the last few repetitions, the muscle fibers exhaust. Also, while the load is much higher, science has found that metabolites are produced during high rep training that may contribute to hypertrophic gains.

References:

Goto K, Nagasawa M, Yanagisawa O, Kizuka T, Ishii N, Takamatsu K. Muscular adaptations to combinations of high- and low-intensity resistance exercises. J Strength Cond Res. 2004 Nov;18(4):730-7. doi: 10.1519/R-13603.1. PMID: 15574075.

Schoenfeld BJ, Grgic J, Ogborn D, Krieger JW. Strength and Hypertrophy Adaptations Between Low- vs. High-Load Resistance Training: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis. J Strength Cond Res. 2017 Dec;31(12):3508-3523. doi:

10.1519/JSC.0000000000002200. PMID: 28834797. Schoenfeld BJ, Peterson MD, Ogborn D, Contreras B, Sonmez GT. Effects of Low- vs. High-Load Resistance Training on Muscle Strength and Hypertrophy in Well-Trained Men. J Strength Cond Res. 2015 Oct;29(10):2954-63. doi: 10.1519/JSC.0000000000000958. PMID: 25853914.

Burd NA, Andrews RJ, West DW, Little JP, Cochran AJ, Hector AJ, Cashaback JG, Gibala MJ, Potvin JR, Baker SK, Phillips SM. Muscle time under tension during resistance exercise stimulates differential muscle protein sub-fractional synthetic responses in men. J Physiol. 2012 Jan 15;590(2):351-62. doi: 10.1113/jphysiol.2011.221200. Epub 2011 Nov 21. PMID: 22106173; PMCID: PMC3285070.

Mitchell CJ, Churchward-Venne TA, West DW, Burd NA, Breen L, Baker SK, Phillips SM. Resistance exercise load does not determine training-mediated hypertrophic gains in young men. J Appl Physiol (1985). 2012 Jul;113(1):71-7. doi: 10.1152/japplphysiol.00307.2012. Epub 2012 Apr 19. PMID: 22518835; PMCID: PMC3404827.

Vinogradova OL, Popov DV, Netreba AI, Tsvirkun DV, Kurochkina NS, Bachinin AV, Bravyĭ IaR, Liubaeva EV, Lysenko EA, Miller TF, Borovik AS, Tarasova OS, Orlov OI. [Optimization of training: development of a new partial load mode of strength training]. Fiziol Cheloveka. 2013 Sep-Oct;39(5):71-85. Russian. PMID: 25509874.

 

[TRicker]

@BigTex Have you tried, or are you doing TUT?

I tried it about 8 years ago (age 38), and I was unimpressed. I had a great pump through the workout, but my muscles seemed flat a day later, and halfway through the week felt like I didn't even work out that muscle group.
However, last week I was using a hotel gym (better than nothing) with limited weights and equipment, so I tried very high reps. I noticed I felt the pump longer and actually felt I got a good workout for the better part of the week. Maybe it's because I'm older?

For the last few years, I've been incorporating both the heavy and medium rep range in each workout for each muscle group...ending with the lighter weight/higher reps.
Maybe I'll try a few weeks of the higher reps and see how I feel.

 

[JmarkH]

I recently read an article on t-nation "The 3/7 Method for Muscle Growth and Strength."
It seems to agree with the above research and chart. I thought the reps going from 3 to 4 to 5 to 6 to 7 were backward from everything I'd been taught as a young man. I gave it a try with only 15 seconds of rest between and exhaustion moved in at the end. The article suggested up to 3 of these sets per exercise.
I've not worked out for years and am giving myself a year to strengthen my ligaments and tendons before pushing it too far. This method so far is agreeable to the joints and such.

 

[Mojo88]

Great info gents, thanks for posting. I'm 71 and try to hit the gym almost every day. The only thing that holds me back is fear of injury (I've certainly had a few) and some nagging pains that remind me of my age.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

@BigTex Have you tried, or are you doing TUT?

I tried it about 8 years ago (age 38), and I was unimpressed. I had a great pump through the workout, but my muscles seemed flat a day later, and halfway through the week felt like I didn't even work out that muscle group.
However, last week I was using a hotel gym (better than nothing) with limited weights and equipment, so I tried very high reps. I noticed I felt the pump longer and actually felt I got a good workout for the better part of the week. Maybe it's because I'm older?

For the last few years, I've been incorporating both the heavy and medium rep range in each workout for each muscle group...ending with the lighter weight/higher reps.
Maybe I'll try a few weeks of the higher reps and see how I feel.

@TRicker, I am doing it now. The jury is still out. I have osteoarthritis in both shoulders, a knee and low back. I have no choice but to back off the weight, so mu goals have changed. We do know that the difference in powerlifters (low rep super high intensity) and bodybuilders (higher rep, high intensity) is the type fibers used in training. High ranges have been shown to cause a more non-functional sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Lower rep ranges cause more of a myofibril hypertrophy. This also relates to the hypertrophy continuum I put up. What I have seen so far, is my body weight is the same, my body fat is the same, my diet is the same and my measurements have been constant. I have been doing this for maybe 6 weeks. So I have not lost any size but I am definitely not as strong. This is demonstrated in the research studies I posted.

I am doing 5 sets of 15 reps for every exercise and 2 sets per body group. So I am getting a whole lot of volume in and go to muscular failure. My workouts last about 70 minutes and I take 45 seconds between sets. I am getting a huge muscular pump, which translates in to sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. I am also getting sore the next day which tells me there is a lot of adaptation going on. So I will give it a few months.

I am definitely old school and realize that if you want to be big you have to push that heavy weight. If you want to be strong you have to do max singles. But again, as we age, the joints start having issues. We do think that heavy weight can accelerate this process over time. I spent 27 year competing. So at some point in your life you may be face with the decision to back off the weight. I am already past that point and suffer a great deal of pain. I think at 38 of even 46 you are far from that point. I set 14 world records in powerlifting at almost 50 and was still hitting big numbers up until about 60. I could still do it if it didn't hurt so bad doing it. I am not convinced yet this will make you a competitive bodybuilder but I do believe you can lift like this and look as good or better than most in the gym depending on how hard you lift.

By the way, in case anyone wonders I wrote that article. I actually have published over 100 articles in different magazines including Muscle and Fitness, Men's Health, Powerlifting USA, and Texas Coach. So I still enjoy writing and will do quite a lot of stuff that will be posted here. The joys of being retired.....

 

[Phil Goodman]

I think you can probably maintain most if not all of your mass by going with higher reps/lower weights, assuming you aren’t going super light. I still try to stay in the 8-12 range and have never really tried to go super heavy while only hitting 1-3 reps. I’m not sure there is a good way to cheat the system though. The more you spare your joints the more you sacrifice on your strength gains imho. I did run GVT for a while and really liked it, and I think it’s a good balance, though I know there are some who are really against it. That being said, I think the best way is to just find what works for you, listen to your body, make sure to incorporate stretching into your routine, and make sure to adequately warm up for each session. If you do those things you’ll have a much better chance of avoiding injury.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

The following material come directly from a PowerPoint I made for a college level advance weight training class.

So here is something to think about.....the Weider Principals were written from observations done by Joe Weider who sat and observed the pros train at his gym for years. Weider eventually put all his observations together almost 70 years ago. Joe Weider had no degree in exercise science.

The muscle confusion principle
What it is: The Weider Muscle Confusion Principle involves constantly changing the acute variables in your workout such as number of sets, number of reps, exercise choice, exercise order, and the length of rest periods. This alternation is designed to prevent you from getting in a rut and slowing or stalling your progress.

How to use it: Simply change acute training variables every workout. One of the easiest ways to do this is to change the weight and the rep ranges you use. You could use heavy weight and low reps (5-7) in one chest workout, light weight and high reps (20-30) in the next, then moderate weight and moderate reps (8-10), and finally light weight and high reps (12-15).

Research
The research says: A study conducted by researchers at the Tempe campus of Arizona State University compared two groups of trained subjects, one using an undulating periodization program—a fancy term for muscle confusion—and the other with a linear periodization program. In the undulating program, the acute variables were changed with every workout, whereas in the linear program, they were changed every few weeks. After 12 weeks, people following the undulating periodization program increased their bench press and leg press strength by 100 percent more than those following the linear program.

Researchers from Brazil saw even more drastic differences when they had trained subjects follow one of three programs: an undulating periodization program, a linear periodization program, or a consistent non-periodized program of 8-10 reps per set. The training program consisted of a two-day split with 3-4 total training days per week.

After 12 weeks, the group following the muscle confusion program increased its bench press by about 60 pounds, almost 200 percent more than both the linear periodization program and the non-periodized program. The undulating program also increased the subjects' strength on the leg press by a staggering 275 pounds, 400 percent more than the non-periodized program and more than 300 percent more than the linear program.

This principle can apply to muscle growth as well as strength. Researchers from the Federal University of Rio De Janeiro had a group of untrained men follow a linear periodization program of two sets of 12-15 reps per exercise for four weeks, then three sets of 8-10 reps per exercises for four weeks, and finally four sets of 3-5 reps per exercise for the final four weeks.

Meanwhile, a group used those same set and rep ranges but cycled them each time they trained. The results: The group following the undulating plan increased its triceps size by about five percent, while the linear group saw no such increase. The undulating group also increased its biceps size by 10 percent—twice that of the linear group.

So obviously by doing higher reps for a period of time you are changing a variable, switching from long rest period to short rest periods also change another variable. When we change any of the variable in weight training, the body is forced out of hemostasis and force to adapt to a new stress. These techniques are nothing new and have been used over the years to create some very large men. Only recently has exercise science figured out what these changes work.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

here is another interesting research paper. Biopsy studies have found that bodybuilders have more type I muscle fibers that powerlifters. So training obviously determines this. Is it possible that high rep-low load training causes significant hypertrophy of type I muscle fibers?

Ogborn, Dan MSc, CSCS1; Schoenfeld, Brad J. MSc, CSCS, CSPS2. The Role of Fiber Types in Muscle Hypertrophy: Implications for Loading Strategies. Strength and Conditioning Journal: April 2014 - Volume 36 - Issue 2 - p 20-25
doi: 10.1519/SSC.0000000000000030

The Role of Fiber Types in Muscle Hypertrophy: Implications ... : Strength & Conditioning Journal

PLICATIONS FOR PROGRAM DESIGN....

journals.lww.com

Abstract​

EMERGING EVIDENCE SUGGESTS THAT TYPE I FIBERS DISPLAY A SUBSTANTIAL PROPENSITY FOR GROWTH IF THEY ARE SELECTIVELY TARGETED VIA LOW-LOAD TRAINING. THE PURPOSE OF THIS ARTICLE WILL BE TO REVIEW THE RESEARCH REGARDING FIBER TYPE–SPECIFIC HYPERTROPHY AND DRAW EVIDENCE-BASED CONCLUSIONS AS TO THEIR IMPLICATIONS FOR PROGRAM DESIGN.

PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS​

Based on the current body of research, there is emerging evidence indicating that type I fibers can substantially contribute to overall muscle CSA. Research also suggests that low-load resistance exercise may help to maximize type I fiber hypertrophy, provided that training is carried out to concentric muscular failure

I remember doing an interview with IFBB Pro Chris Cormier back in the late 90's. He was very big on doing sets of 20, of course what he called light weight was around 1300 lbs on the leg press. Chris had several injuries that prevented him from doing squats. Chris always said you have to learn to train intensely. But then very few know what that really means.

So I also have to go back to the intensity at which you train. It more of a mental thing. Back in the late 90's Dr. Fred Hatfield taught me a technique in powerlifting called "compensatory acceleration training (CAT)." I learned to do this with light weight and practiced and practiced. This type of training brings not only the body into play, but the mind as well. As we know the faster speed we can generate speed in moving the weight, the more force is generated (F=m*a). By training with light to intermediate loads, we are able to move the weights quickly, like it is max weight, thus improving the rate of force development and explosive strength. In powerlifting this type of training teaches us how to break through sticking points by generating max speed off the bottom of a lift to carry us past these biomechanical sticking points. It takes a whole lot of mental training to learn to do this every time we touch the bar.

We can also apply this to bodybuilding. Using controlled negatives, once we get ready to apply concentric force, we have trained the mind to all of the sudden fire off as many muscle fibers as possible, like it a max effort lift, thus generating as much force as we can possibly generate. So, the rate of force development (RFD) is really a measure of explosive strength, or simply how fast an athlete can develop force. Type II muscle fibers are always used in this type of training, no matter how light the weight is. So whether your train with heavy, medium or light loads CAT can be used to develop maximum force, recruiting maximum Type II muscle fibers. So in this type of training RFD = Max Force / Time to reach Max Force. If you practice this type of very explosive training with ever thing you do you will find your self breaking all sorts of barriers in the gym. Your intensity will be at new levels.

 

[Checkmate7]

Many of us want to have a ample amount of muscle but as we age we also do not want to stress out our aging joints. I have recognized as I started getting up their in age my goals in the gym have changed from being big and strong to just looking like I am big and strong. However, we all recognize that if we want to be a mass monster; we need to lift that heavy weight, right? But can we maintain a significant amount of muscle mass as we age by lifting lighter reps for higher repetitions and taking it easy on our old joints?.

Time under tension

The term, "time under tension" or TUT for short, refers to the amount of time your muscles are under a load during resistance training. Ideally them more time under tension the better for hypertrophy. So how do we perform the lift? Tempo of training should be a controlled, about1.5 second eccentric movements and explosive concentric movements. A total of maybe 1.5 seconds per repetition. Let's say, you have a max bench press of 315 lbs. As you see below, the time the muscle is under tension pressing 315lbs 1 time for 5 reps compared to pressing 50%1RM for 15 reps is much greater. Not only is there a big difference in the TUT as well as the total volume lifted. Remember, since the weight loads are light rest periods can be cut to about 1 minute further increasing metabolites.

315 x 5 sets of 1 rep – 1575lbs total.. Total time- about 7.5 seconds.​

​

150lbs (50%1RM) x 5 sets of 15 reps – 11250lbs total. Total time about 112.5 seconds​

What does science have to say

There is a compelling body of research that indicates that within wide limits, you build as much muscle from training with relatively light weights as you do from heavier loads. In fact, superior gains have been shown when lifting weights >65% 1RM. How does this happen? Researchers have discovered that fast-twitch fibers *Type II) are progressively activated as a light-load set nears muscle failure, thus indicating that tension is specific to the level of exerted effort. So, if you do a set of 15 reps the 1st few will be easy but as we reach the last few repetitions, the muscle fibers exhaust. Also, while the load is much higher, science has found that metabolites are produced during high rep training that may contribute to hypertrophic gains.

View attachment 23967

References:

Goto K, Nagasawa M, Yanagisawa O, Kizuka T, Ishii N, Takamatsu K. Muscular adaptations to combinations of high- and low-intensity resistance exercises. J Strength Cond Res. 2004 Nov;18(4):730-7. doi: 10.1519/R-13603.1. PMID: 15574075.

Schoenfeld BJ, Grgic J, Ogborn D, Krieger JW. Strength and Hypertrophy Adaptations Between Low- vs. High-Load Resistance Training: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis. J Strength Cond Res. 2017 Dec;31(12):3508-3523. doi:

10.1519/JSC.0000000000002200. PMID: 28834797. Schoenfeld BJ, Peterson MD, Ogborn D, Contreras B, Sonmez GT. Effects of Low- vs. High-Load Resistance Training on Muscle Strength and Hypertrophy in Well-Trained Men. J Strength Cond Res. 2015 Oct;29(10):2954-63. doi: 10.1519/JSC.0000000000000958. PMID: 25853914.

Burd NA, Andrews RJ, West DW, Little JP, Cochran AJ, Hector AJ, Cashaback JG, Gibala MJ, Potvin JR, Baker SK, Phillips SM. Muscle time under tension during resistance exercise stimulates differential muscle protein sub-fractional synthetic responses in men. J Physiol. 2012 Jan 15;590(2):351-62. doi: 10.1113/jphysiol.2011.221200. Epub 2011 Nov 21. PMID: 22106173; PMCID: PMC3285070.

Mitchell CJ, Churchward-Venne TA, West DW, Burd NA, Breen L, Baker SK, Phillips SM. Resistance exercise load does not determine training-mediated hypertrophic gains in young men. J Appl Physiol (1985). 2012 Jul;113(1):71-7. doi: 10.1152/japplphysiol.00307.2012. Epub 2012 Apr 19. PMID: 22518835; PMCID: PMC3404827.

Vinogradova OL, Popov DV, Netreba AI, Tsvirkun DV, Kurochkina NS, Bachinin AV, Bravyĭ IaR, Liubaeva EV, Lysenko EA, Miller TF, Borovik AS, Tarasova OS, Orlov OI. [Optimization of training: development of a new partial load mode of strength training]. Fiziol Cheloveka. 2013 Sep-Oct;39(5):71-85. Russian. PMID: 255098 Well from experience I can say some body parts respond to high reps others don't . One has to consider fast twitch and slow twitch, also type of muscle structureennate,unipennate. The bicep is pennate muscle , meaning it's a fibers in a straight line,that limits it's strength potential,whereas the thigh are a unnipennate muscle,fibers running diagnal, which makes them stronger against pull. Old school bodybuilding has always advised slower progression to heavy weights for biceps,and more frequent progression to heavy weights for quads

 

[Warrior]

I've been a trainer for 31yrs and training my self for 40yrs. My practice is exclusively baby boomer men, 45 and up for the last 15yrs. At 61 yrs old, my personal training is how I teach. More warmup, joint friendly exercises, less rest time between sets. Higher intensity with less volume, and increased frequency. The key is smart training, listen to your body, take more recovery action.

 

[Dialingitin]

Any validity to the notion that joint/ligament/tendon health actually suffers MORE from higher reps (vs. lower reps/heavier weight)?

 

[Gladiator]

As a truck driver working 17 to 19 hour days the only time I had for weights was while driving long distance. 1000kg each arm twice a week (10kg dumbbell)with shoulder press 480kg (8kg kettlebell) then sometimes adding in a second set for the day. I managed to get veins popping out in places I never seen them. Definitely grown in the 6 months of doing it.
Diet is the trick with high protein and lots of food.
I find light weights with lots of reps good. You can get to the point you would normally fail from pain and get another 10 reps.

 

[Another Great Day]

4X Mr. Olympia Jay Cutler discusses a fan question of "Are Low Rep Vs. High Rep Better For Mass Building?".

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Thank you! Spending 27 years of my life learning how to be as strong as I can be at the squat bench and deadlift I have had to completely re-train my brain. My wife is is a former IFBB Pro has been trying to drum this same thing in my head for years. Its not about being strong, its all about getting a max pump in the muscle and feeding it. Jay Cutler is strong but he is not known for using the heavy weight. I admit I have had a great deal of time trying to understand how heavy weight is not the key. Its taken a great deal of pain and a badly bruised ego to finally get it.

 

[Another Great Day]

Thank you! Spending 27 years of my life learning how to be as strong as I can be at the squat bench and deadlift I have had to completely re-train my brain. My wife is is a former IFBB Pro has been trying to drum this same thing in my head for years. Its not about being strong, its all about getting a max pump in the muscle and feeding it. Jay Cutler is strong but he is not known for using the heavy weight. I admit I have had a great deal of time trying to understand how heavy weight is not the key. Its taken a great deal of pain and a badly bruised ego to finally get it.

Great, another video with Jay and John meadows. John also conformed to the 9-12 reps. John Meadows has a fantastic YouTube channel. I think I have watched all of his training videos and continue to watch them again at least 2x per week.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Again, looking at this repetition maximum continuum, 6-12 reps is OPTIMAL for growth. We can still have a limited amount of muscle hypertrophy with <6 reps but that gets more into strength and power. Reps from 12-15 cause a significant amount of hypertrophy but not optimal but also much less stress to the joints. While I value the what these pros have to teach, this board is more directional at the >45 crowd who really doesn't need the stress on the joints, the risk of injury and just want to keep a substantial amount of muscle mass but still want to keep in the game. Take a look at Ronnie Coleman and see the struggles he is having with joint issues as he has gotten older...13 surgeries so far. I am slightly more lucky and have had three and honestly need both shoulders replaced, the left knee replaced and lumbar disk replacement. I still want to look muscular but can't afford any more tremendous stress to the joints. Just not willing to look like a normal person. Unfortunately more and more of us fall in this category. Nelson just had hip replacement but I know he will be back in the gym again.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

I think this is a really important set of points and I will add a different variable. I spent the early years of my strength pursuits using the Arthur Jones/Mike Mentzer/Ken Leistner approach of working up to a max set of some number of reps (usually under 10) and trying to achieve the absolute max intensity possible on the top set, not just going to failure but using things like forced negatives and drop sets. I was stronger than the average person (which is not saying much) training that way but I never really made the kind of progress that in retrospect I should have. ( I was on no exogenous anabolics at that time.) Then around 2010 I ran across Pavel Tsatsouline and Steve Justa who advocated for not going to failure but rather doing more sets/higher volume at weights that while “heavy” did not require grinding out reps to complete the set. The basic principle is that the benefits of max effort sets come with the downside of longer recovery time ( I needed on average 4 days of recovery per body-part when I was doing max effort) whereas short-term gains will be less using the submaximal effort approach but that is counterbalanced by the benefits I list below.

Since switching to that type of approach, with many tweaks and variations since then, I am much stronger overall than I was before (i.e. I can lift much more at 95% than my previous 1 rep max) especially in upper body movements, and I have strength through a much wider variety of movements. There are a lot of set/rep schemes that I have used but I generally keep the reps under 10 unless I am rehabbing something so 8 sets of 3, 15 sets of 1, or 5x5, with various progression schemes that oscillate between slightly higher weight vs. high total volume, all while never getting to the point where I have to grind out a rep, is the basic pattern. I would highlight the following benefits for those who may be interested :

• With this approach, here is no excuse for anything other than perfect form, and not bouncing/throwing the weight. This alone will be joint-friendly. Many people allow their form to degrade as they approach failure, whether that be 2 reps or 30 reps, so “lighter” does not necessarily guarantee safer.
• The reduced systemic stress enables much greater breadth of activity. I now do four types of presses per week, which would have been impossible before due to the front-delt and tricep recovery required.
• The volume I now do is astronomical compared to what I did before which obviously increases time under tension.
• I find this approach to be much more rehab-friendly. I have had to rehab both shoulders, an elbow and my back during the time I’ve been lifting this way and I find that I lose less strength and heal more quickly with this approach.
• Plateaus are less likely to lead to over-training. This alone has been a huge benefit as burn-out and strength loss was a big problem previously. I have found that my strength gains are actually more of a step-function than a linear increase, and I now plan my loading patterns and expectations around that.
• Once you get used to stopping short of grinding out reps, it is surprisingly easy to tell whether you have gotten stronger.
• A lot of strength research uses programs somewhat similar to a 16 week powerlifting progression, which I did many of, however I have found that to really tell if a program works, it takes about 18 months or so, IOW long-enough to ensure that injury, burn-out, holidays, vacation, sickness, stress, de-loads, etc. will not derail the approach. Another thing that became apparent to me when evaluating over a longer timeline, is that real, sustainable gains happen more slowly than most people think, and it is important to think long-term rather than in short bursts.
• The mental “psych” required is much less for a 95% lift that a 100% lift, another factor reducing the risk of systemic burn-out.
• The role of the nervous system seems to be undervalued in comparison to muscle adaptation, and higher sets at slightly sub-maximal weights seem to have a major benefit. It is almost as if you are training the nervous system as much as inducing muscle growth, which is likely why this type of training is common among Olympic lifters.
• I find that I can do the descent part of the lift under much greater control if I am not attempting maximal weights, and the research is pretty clear that the negative is at least, if not more, important than the ascending part of the lift.
• The mentality that only the max effort lifts are really promoting adaptation can lead to a lot of insidious problems, like pushing too hard when you can feel an injury lurking. Farmers, construction workers, and gymnasts are examples of people who are often very strong but are not known for doing constant max-effort activity, but who rather do very high volume at heavy but sustainable levels.
• Especially for those not on TRT, constant max-effort work is likely to lead to greater hormonal stress as well. A poster on another forum (Chilln) had a theory which I think has a lot of merit which is that a lot of people start lifting in their youth when their hormones are high, but then keep right on with the same type of (unsustainable) stress level into an age where their hormones decline, which leads to a downward cycle of overall burnout.

Ok, that’s my three cents. If someone is skeptical but wants to give it a try, start with a movement you aren’t emotionally attached to (for me that was pull-ups) and experiment with it.

 

[Another Great Day]

I think this is a really important set of points and I will add a different variable. I spent the early years of my strength pursuits using the Arthur Jones/Mike Mentzer/Ken Leistner approach of working up to a max set of some number of reps (usually under 10) and trying to achieve the absolute max intensity possible on the top set, not just going to failure but using things like forced negatives and drop sets. I was stronger than the average person (which is not saying much) training that way but I never really made the kind of progress that in retrospect I should have. ( I was on no exogenous anabolics at that time.) Then around 2010 I ran across Pavel Tsatsouline and Steve Justa who advocated for not going to failure but rather doing more sets/higher volume at weights that while “heavy” did not require grinding out reps to complete the set. The basic principle is that the benefits of max effort sets come with the downside of longer recovery time ( I needed on average 4 days of recovery per body-part when I was doing max effort) whereas short-term gains will be less using the submaximal effort approach but that is counterbalanced by the benefits I list below.

Since switching to that type of approach, with many tweaks and variations since then, I am much stronger overall than I was before (i.e. I can lift much more at 95% than my previous 1 rep max) especially in upper body movements, and I have strength through a much wider variety of movements. There are a lot of set/rep schemes that I have used but I generally keep the reps under 10 unless I am rehabbing something so 8 sets of 3, 15 sets of 1, or 5x5, with various progression schemes that oscillate between slightly higher weight vs. high total volume, all while never getting to the point where I have to grind out a rep, is the basic pattern. I would highlight the following benefits for those who may be interested :

• With this approach, here is no excuse for anything other than perfect form, and not bouncing/throwing the weight. This alone will be joint-friendly. Many people allow their form to degrade as they approach failure, whether that be 2 reps or 30 reps, so “lighter” does not necessarily guarantee safer.
• The reduced systemic stress enables much greater breadth of activity. I now do four types of presses per week, which would have been impossible before due to the front-delt and tricep recovery required.
• The volume I now do is astronomical compared to what I did before which obviously increases time under tension.
• I find this approach to be much more rehab-friendly. I have had to rehab both shoulders, an elbow and my back during the time I’ve been lifting this way and I find that I lose less strength and heal more quickly with this approach.
• Plateaus are less likely to lead to over-training. This alone has been a huge benefit as burn-out and strength loss was a big problem previously. I have found that my strength gains are actually more of a step-function than a linear increase, and I now plan my loading patterns and expectations around that.
• Once you get used to stopping short of grinding out reps, it is surprisingly easy to tell whether you have gotten stronger.
• A lot of strength research uses programs somewhat similar to a 16 week powerlifting progression, which I did many of, however I have found that to really tell if a program works, it takes about 18 months or so, IOW long-enough to ensure that injury, burn-out, holidays, vacation, sickness, stress, de-loads, etc. will not derail the approach. Another thing that became apparent to me when evaluating over a longer timeline, is that real, sustainable gains happen more slowly than most people think, and it is important to think long-term rather than in short bursts.
• The mental “psych” required is much less for a 95% lift that a 100% lift, another factor reducing the risk of systemic burn-out.
• The role of the nervous system seems to be undervalued in comparison to muscle adaptation, and higher sets at slightly sub-maximal weights seem to have a major benefit. It is almost as if you are training the nervous system as much as inducing muscle growth, which is likely why this type of training is common among Olympic lifters.
• I find that I can do the descent part of the lift under much greater control if I am not attempting maximal weights, and the research is pretty clear that the negative is at least, if not more, important than the ascending part of the lift.
• The mentality that only the max effort lifts are really promoting adaptation can lead to a lot of insidious problems, like pushing too hard when you can feel an injury lurking. Farmers, construction workers, and gymnasts are examples of people who are often very strong but are not known for doing constant max-effort activity, but who rather do very high volume at heavy but sustainable levels.
• Especially for those not on TRT, constant max-effort work is likely to lead to greater hormonal stress as well. A poster on another forum (Chilln) had a theory which I think has a lot of merit which is that a lot of people start lifting in their youth when their hormones are high, but then keep right on with the same type of (unsustainable) stress level into an age where their hormones decline, which leads to a downward cycle of overall burnout.

Ok, that’s my three cents. If someone is skeptical but wants to give it a try, start with a movement you aren’t emotionally attached to (for me that was pull-ups) and experiment with it.

Great information.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

I think for a good balance of strength and size I used an undulating form of periodization In other words I had my football programs using a conjugate style of lifting, started in the Soviet block countries. We lifted heavy year round an even during the season. We had 3 max effort days/wk concentrating on the squat, bench and deadlift rotating reps from 5 to singles every week. Followed by accessory work in the high rep ranges to stimulate hypertrophy, 2-4 sets of 12 reps. All of the work we did transferred to the 3 max effort and we concentrated heavily on the hip complex. As strong hip complex translates to a good athlete. I had a defensive lineman doing 900lbs for 3 reps on the box squat.

My head coach did an experiment one season and we did not do any running off season. With this type of training, our 40 times significantly decreased with no work on running. In the end, we had athletes that looked like bodybuilders but had the strength of powerlifters. Louie Simmons pushes conjugate training and has been very successful. When I trained with Anthony Clark, he also used this type of training. I hit the highest totals of my career using it. I wrote a pretty long article about this type of training back in maybe 2015 in the Texas High School Coach magazine and I had some many responses from coaches all over the USA from high school to pro, it was almost hard to answer them all. Even got a few calls from Louie Simmons.

However, in my observation from the top pros in bodybuilding, high intensity, high volume work is what most all of them do. Rep ranges to 20 to warm up, to 6 to 12 reps in their work sets. Sets minimum are 10 sets to 30 sets per muscle group. Ronnie Coleman mixed a high rep bodybuilding cycle with a more powerlifting cycle weekly, training 6 days a week. Most good bodybuilders are training 6 days a week hitting each muscle group 2 times a week. I have trained like this myself for quite a few years but joints just won't take the stress any longer.

This Mentzer stuff went around for a while and now has kind of come back as DoggCrapp training pushed by Dante Trudale. He is big in warmups to 1 set to failure and then 2-3 sets of rest-pauses. I tried that later on in my life but the heavy weight all the time was too much for my joints. At one time I was doing 495, 8 times on the bench press and then a 3 sets of rest pauses. My wife was my spotter and trust me she hated ever minute of it.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

I'd be curious to know your view of Westside style speed day. I have found that and chains/bands to be very effective however I don't do speed work as much as I probably should give the volume it would add, but it is another example of something that is a bit more joint-friendly. I was not suggesting in my post above that avoiding max effort would be good for competitive athletes since there is no peaking phase and most athletes are fairly close to their hormonal prime, one way or another. I'm more focused on longevity and all-around athleticism at what for most people is a fairly advanced age (over 60). Thanks for this thread BigTex!