Been on the cream for 3 months, have some questions

[StepbyStep]

Hey guys, I haven't really been thinking too much about TRT since starting the creams 3 months ago. I just apply every morning and don't give it much thought. I originally started TRT in 2017 and quit after about a year because it made everything worse. I went natural for 5 months and made a decent recovery, but still felt like I needed to try other forms of TRT before throwing in the towel.

I'll start by saying that the cream has really been great overall. Not a miracle by any means, but it really kicked my libido into high gear for the first couple of months, and has settled to a moderate level over the past month. The only negative side effect that I've had from the cream is testicular atrophy, but interestingly my testicles have not shrunk as much as they did on injections, and my ejaculate volume hasn't reduced a whole lot. My lifelong struggle has always been ED, and the injections made my ED severe, to the point where I needed trimix at age 28. I haven't needed to use trimix since quitting the injections, and my erections are better on the cream vs in my natural state. Another pleasant surprise is that my penis has grown slightly, about 1/2" in length and a little bit in girth. I took measurements after my girlfriend said that I seemed bigger than I used to be.

Anyways, I've been using Defy for a year or so now so I've been getting the cream from Empower. I apply one click to my scrotum, and two to my ribcage area. I had bloods drawn 1 1/2 hours after applying, and the results are as follows:

TT 421ng/dL
FT 15 pg/mL
E2 17 pg/mL
DHT 240 ng/dL (30-80)

Now this is where I'm struggling, the TT results suck and I'm not sure why. Obviously the testosterone applied to the scrotum is converting to DHT well, and is probably providing a libido boost and improving erectile function, but my natural testosterone while off TRT is around 460. I knew something was off because I haven't really leaned out at all like I did on injections when my TT was 800-1000.

So my questions are, did I not wait long enough after apply the cream? And is there a definitive guide on the best places to apply the cream? All I can find are anecdotal reports on forums. I'm fairly hairy, and shaving gives me ingrown hairs pretty badly. I'm also trying to apply to areas that I won't accidentally transfer to my girlfriend.

 

[Gman86]

Quick question, I heard that Empower offers two types of testosterone creams. Guess they have different bases. Do you know which cream you have, and did defy offer you the option between the two?

Do you apply all 3 clicks in the am, or do you split the doses?

As far as places to to apply, the best places are scrotum (when shaven), back of knees, tops of feet, inner forearms, upper chest/ front of neck area and armpits (when shaven)

 

[Vince Carter]

I would not change the dose or anything else but encourage you to do your next set of labs at 3-4hrs and see what you get. By your dose you should be seeing better numbers but I think 1.5hrs is not long enough. You have an obvious DHT which is good. When I test DHT on the scrotum I see a great response in the ~3hr time frame. You should be sure to run PSA as well just to keep an eye on it while using scrotum delivery.

Its an obvious deifference but I've run labs throughout the day when injecting 16mg and I don't see my numbers coming up until I get past 8hrs and approach 12-28hrs.

 

[Vince Carter]

trim your hair, don't shave but trim it down short if that's a spot you want to use.

 

[edvedder]

The numbers are really not that important if you're feeling good. If you do want to see a higher TT and FT, then apply 2 or 3 clicks to the scrotum instead of just 1. You are frankly wasting cream (&money!) by applying on your ribcage - transference risk may be potentially higher too.

You should getting close to the peak within 2 hours so I doubt if it was too early. But next time you could try measuring between 4-5 hours after application. I'd definitely experiment with at least an additional click on shaved scrotum..

 

[TLR]

I started scrotal cream just over a month ago at one click (50 mg). I tested total testosterone only to kind of get an idea where it was putting me. I did it just a bit over 3 hrs after application and I was at 740. The one study i have found showed this to be in line with a 50 mg dose, and that it peaks at around 3 hrs after application as stated above. You may still be on your way up at 1.5 hrs. Test it again and see.

 

[edvedder]

The one study i have found showed this to be in line with a 50 mg dose, and that it peaks at around 3 hrs after application as stated above. You may still be on your way up at 1.5 hrs. Test it again and see.

Wish we had more studies on compounded scrotal creams. I assume you are referring to the Androforte study which found a peak around 1.9 to 2.8 hours after dosing. But surely, you and OP on just 1 click probably fall back to baseline within 24 hours - don't you guys feel any symptoms creeping back towards the end of the day ?

 

[StepbyStep]

Thank you all for the replies! I'll do my best to answer questions.

Gman, the cream is 200mg/ml so I believe its the higher strength dosage, and I apply everything at once to lower the chances of transferring to my partner. I believe the 3 clicks are equal to 150mg. We either have sex in the morning before I apply, or before bed which means that it's usually 16 hours since applying.

Vince, thank you for the suggestions. I agree, I should not change anything and test again 3-4 hours after. My PSA was tested and has not budged at all, it sits at 0.8 and has for years.

edvedder, I'll talk to Dr. Saya about trying another click on the scrotum. I understand that the cream is nearly wasted and loses a ton of potential when applied to other areas, but Dr. Saya expressed that guys were getting DHT up to like 400-500ng/dL when doing this if I recall correctly. The long term side effects of having x5 times higher than normal are not known, and I'm already at 250ng/dL with just one click.

Also, I feel absolutely no crash. I actually get tired before bed and fall asleep quickly at the end of the day like a normal person. On the injections, I would occasionally get insomnia for unkown reasons. Often on weekends I'll sleep in and procrastinate applying the cream which results in me having 30 hours in between dosages and I feel absolutely fine.

 

[StepbyStep]

Gman, how long after applying to the tops of my feet should I wait before putting socks on?

 

[Gman86]

Gman, how long after applying to the tops of my feet should I wait before putting socks on?

Good question. I honestly have no idea. Depends on the base of the cream and how quickly it absorbs I would imagine.

So defy didn’t give you the option of which cream from Empower to use? I think the two just have different bases. The concentration might be the same. I only ask because I’m with defy, and will most likely end up switching to the cream from Empower. Just curious if they asked you which one you would like, or if they just ordered which one they wanted for u.

 

[StepbyStep]

Good question. I honestly have no idea. Depends on the base of the cream and how quickly it absorbs I would imagine.

So defy didn’t give you the option of which cream from Empower to use? I think the two just have different bases. The concentration might be the same. I only ask because I’m with defy, and will most likely end up switching to the cream from Empower. Just curious if they asked you which one you would like, or if they just ordered which one they wanted for u.

I honestly don't recall, I think Dr. Saya just prescribed me whichever one he preferred.

 

[Vince Carter]

with DHT and the scrotum cream I thought that I would add this for information you might find worthy. I use 1 click in addition to my injections, so 12.5mg and I normally test at ~40 on a 16-79 scale (Quest) but 3hrs post application I can get to ~100 on that scale.

 

[wondering]

Hoping this is the ticket for me.

 

[StepbyStep]

Hoping this is the ticket for me.

Worth a shot man, I lost a year of my life in injections. No matter what I did I always felt terrible or just off. I kept thinking I just needed to get dialed in, but after so many different protocols, EOD injections, thyroid meds, and thousands of dollars spent I threw in the towel. I feel way better all natural or on the cream. My feelings are that some of us have bad reactions to chemicals in injectible forms of Testosterone.

 

[wondering]

Curious if you would do even better with a little T Cyp to get your total levels higher. But if you feel good, you feel good.

 

[edvedder]

with DHT and the scrotum cream I thought that I would add this for information you might find worthy. I use 1 click in addition to my injections, so 12.5mg and I normally test at ~40 on a 16-79 scale (Quest) but 3hrs post application I can get to ~100 on that scale.

And I believe you indicated that your DHT returns to baseline after 24 hours. For me, with 3 clicks ,after 24 hours its 174. Which make's stepbystep's level of 240 on 1 click after 24 hours interesting. dht peaks I think a couple hours after the Test peak. So he theoretically should have been closer to his dht trough when he measured ? Probably best to not measure dht at peak - may give defy a stroke lol!

 

[StepbyStep]

The 240 DHT level was 1.5hrs after application, not 24.

 

[edvedder]

The 240 DHT level was 1.5hrs after application, not 24.

In the first 1.5 hours, your dht should not be near the peak. I think in the Iyer study, the dht peak happened 4.9 h after which was delayed by 2 h after peak serum testosterone. So that's why I found it interesting. The concern about prolonged high levels is probably unfounded.

 

[wondering]

Worth a shot man, I lost a year of my life in injections. No matter what I did I always felt terrible or just off. I kept thinking I just needed to get dialed in, but after so many different protocols, EOD injections, thyroid meds, and thousands of dollars spent I threw in the towel. I feel way better all natural or on the cream. My feelings are that some of us have bad reactions to chemicals in injectible forms of Testosterone.

Wish I lost a year. I've been searching for 23 years.