Back on Pregnenolone - Interesting Consequences

[DragonBits]

I started back up with Pregnenolone, with some interesting effects.

I had taken pregnenolone in the past, (years ago) 50 mg, it seemed to have no effect at that time, but now it does.

This is the problem with many supplements/hormones, they are syngeneic with other hormones supplements. I have been taking boron 6-9 mg daily and now my vit D was raised from 25 > 46 ng/mL (last tested in Jan) (30-100 ng/mL), they may have played a role in how I react.

Anyway ...

Starting at 50 mg preg, I slept much better, and felt calm the next day, it seems like I went from mild constipation to loose stools, and I feel like I am a little more likely to get a muscle cramp. However, the second day I was sleeping off and on all day long.

So I lowered by dose to 12.5 mg, still slept well, but not so sleepy the next day, still feel more calm, my pulse rate may have dropped from 65 to 57, hard to tell without more monitoring.

Time will tell on the sleep aspect, I usually fall asleep easily, but I am also a very light sleeper and wake up at least once to 3-4 times a night, often I will be up for an hour. Time will tell because sleep is so tricky, what helps for a few days seems to wear off after a short time.

I have never measured pregnenolone levels, I have read serum levels of preg will peak 3 hours after oral ingestion, and from Wikipedia:

Pharmacology[edit]
Oral administration of 50 or 100 mg pregnenolone has been found to have minimal or negligible effect on urinary levels of testosterone and testosterone metabolites, including of androsterone, etiocholanolone, 5β-androstanediol, androstadienol, and androstenol (and/or their conjugates), and this suggests that only a small amount of pregnenolone is converted into testosterone.[17][18] This is in accordance with findings on the conversion of DHEA into testosterone, in which only 1.5% of an oral dose of DHEA was found to be converted into testosterone.[17] In contrast to the androstanes, 50 or 100 mg oral pregnenolone has been found to significantly and in fact "strongly" increase urinary levels of the progesterone metabolites pregnanediol and pregnanolone (and/or their conjugates), whereas pregnanetriol was unaffected.[17][18] Unlike the case of oral administration, transdermal administration of 30 mg/day pregnenolone cream has not been found to affect urinary levels of metabolites of any other steroids, including of progesterone.[18]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnenolone

As I say, interesting, I will continue with pregnenolone, see if any of these effects are long lasting and maybe lower to dose from 12.5 mg.

 

[Rhino 2.0]

So is there really any difference between taking DHEA or Pregnenolone? They both go down the same hormonal pathway so wouldn't their affects be the same? If there is a difference between them what is it? I took 30 mg of preg today and it gave me a ton of energy, stamina, and aggression in the gym.

 

[DragonBits]

So is there really any difference between taking DHEA or Pregnenolone? They both go down the same hormonal pathway so wouldn't their affects be the same? If there is a difference between them what is it? I took 30 mg of preg today and it gave me a ton of energy, stamina, and aggression in the gym.

I can't say there is any difference or not.

However, when I take as little as 12 mg DHEA it also gives me diarrhea the same as Pregnenolone did.

Both DHEA and Pregnenolone can covert to progesterone which is known in women to cause diarrhea, men are less studied as we don't typically look at pregnenolone, progesterone levels though these hormones are present at smaller levels.

Hard to tell if I sleep better, I still get up at night, but last night I slept for over 10 hours, which is more than I like to sleep.

I don't see diarrhea listed as a common side effect of dhea, so I am not sure why that happens to me. Anyone else get this?

Still haven't gotten a sleep cycle "dialed in" but I will suspend any dhea or pregnenolone for a time.

 

[Vettester Chris]

I can't say there is any difference or not.

However, when I take as little as 12 mg DHEA it also gives me diarrhea the same as Pregnenolone did.

Both DHEA and Pregnenolone can covert to progesterone which is known in women to cause diarrhea, men are less studied as we don't typically look at pregnenolone, progesterone levels though these hormones are present at smaller levels.

Hard to tell if I sleep better, I still get up at night, but last night I slept for over 10 hours, which is more than I like to sleep.

I don't see diarrhea listed as a common side effect of dhea, so I am not sure why that happens to me. Anyone else get this?

Still haven't gotten a sleep cycle "dialed in" but I will suspend any dhea or pregnenolone for a time.

Maybe try the sublingual method. I know Defy has it if you are going through them for your HRT?

DHEA as you gathered with help balance the adrenals and the PM cortisol spikes. I might also suggest adding some magnesium in the PM and GABA; both will provide additional calmness and contribute to getting a great night's sleep!

 

[DragonBits]

I can't say there is any difference or not.

However, when I take as little as 12 mg DHEA it also gives me diarrhea the same as Pregnenolone did.

Both DHEA and Pregnenolone can covert to progesterone which is known in women to cause diarrhea, men are less studied as we don't typically look at pregnenolone, progesterone levels though these hormones are present at smaller levels.

Hard to tell if I sleep better, I still get up at night, but last night I slept for over 10 hours, which is more than I like to sleep.

I don't see diarrhea listed as a common side effect of dhea, so I am not sure why that happens to me. Anyone else get this?

Still haven't gotten a sleep cycle "dialed in" but I will suspend any dhea or pregnenolone for a time.

I wanted to clear up mistaken assumption on my part.


I had "thought" dhea/pregnenolone was causing diarrhea, but it turns out I was taking too much magnesium. I had been taking nearly ~5 grams of magnesium citrate powder which is around 1,250% of DIV. A heaping teaspoon. I didn't realize I was at that high a level, as I didn't read the details on the bulk package, and I had been taking this for a couple of months with no problem. The serving size on the bulk magnesium was suggested to be 3325 mg, but in the details it stated 500 mg was 125% of DIV. I had thought 3325 was 125% of DIV, not 831% of DIV,so I had thought I was only a little over DIV.

I didn't take any magnesium for a day and took 25 mg dhea, no diarrhea.

It seem obvious and makes more sense now that the excess magnesium citrate was the cause as we all know excess MG will always cause diarrhea, but at the time the coincidence of symptoms starting at the same time as starting pregnenolone or dhea led me to think that was the primary cause.


It might also be I was deficient in MG in the past, but now my body stores of MG have reached capacity and only a maintenance dose is needed.

 

[Gianluca]

I started back up with Pregnenolone, with some interesting effects.

I had taken pregnenolone in the past, (years ago) 50 mg, it seemed to have no effect at that time, but now it does.

This is the problem with many supplements/hormones, they are syngeneic with other hormones supplements. I have been taking boron 6-9 mg daily and now my vit D was raised from 25 > 46 ng/mL (last tested in Jan) (30-100 ng/mL), they may have played a role in how I react.

Anyway ...

Starting at 50 mg preg, I slept much better, and felt calm the next day, it seems like I went from mild constipation to loose stools, and I feel like I am a little more likely to get a muscle cramp. However, the second day I was sleeping off and on all day long.

So I lowered by dose to 12.5 mg, still slept well, but not so sleepy the next day, still feel more calm, my pulse rate may have dropped from 65 to 57, hard to tell without more monitoring.

Time will tell on the sleep aspect, I usually fall asleep easily, but I am also a very light sleeper and wake up at least once to 3-4 times a night, often I will be up for an hour. Time will tell because sleep is so tricky, what helps for a few days seems to wear off after a short time.

I have never measured pregnenolone levels, I have read serum levels of preg will peak 3 hours after oral ingestion, and from Wikipedia:

Pharmacology[edit]
Oral administration of 50 or 100 mg pregnenolone has been found to have minimal or negligible effect on urinary levels of testosterone and testosterone metabolites, including of androsterone, etiocholanolone, 5β-androstanediol, androstadienol, and androstenol (and/or their conjugates), and this suggests that only a small amount of pregnenolone is converted into testosterone.[17][18] This is in accordance with findings on the conversion of DHEA into testosterone, in which only 1.5% of an oral dose of DHEA was found to be converted into testosterone.[17] In contrast to the androstanes, 50 or 100 mg oral pregnenolone has been found to significantly and in fact "strongly" increase urinary levels of the progesterone metabolites pregnanediol and pregnanolone (and/or their conjugates), whereas pregnanetriol was unaffected.[17][18] Unlike the case of oral administration, transdermal administration of 30 mg/day pregnenolone cream has not been found to affect urinary levels of metabolites of any other steroids, including of progesterone.[18]

Pregnenolone - Wikipedia

As I say, interesting, I will continue with pregnenolone, see if any of these effects are long lasting and maybe lower to dose from 12.5 mg.

Did years ago were you using Pregnelonone in conjunction with HCG and now without the HCG?

 

[DragonBits]

Did years ago were you using Pregnelonone in conjunction with HCG and now without the HCG?

I had tried out pregnenolone several times in my life.

Once over 20s ago, not on TRT with lowish T. Didn't see a benefit, stopped.

In 2018 while on TRT, HCG, DHEA I took pregnenolone for a short time, didn't see a benefit and stopped.

IMO I was inconsistent with pregnenolone.

Right now with TRT (TU/Nebido) I take ~12.5 mg DHEA and 12.5 mg pregnenolone, no HCG, (+metformin) I feel good, higher libido, the only "complaint" I have is sleep maintenance. I tend to get up around 3:00 AM. I am being consistent with both Preg and DHEA.

IMO there are still too many moving parts to really isolate one factor from another.

I have been steadily losing weight, about 6 lbs a month, but now for the last 2 weeks I only lost a lb, went down from 168>142. But this means I have been in calorie deficit. Last night I woke up and was pretty hungry, I think at least partially that is what woke me up.

I had also been running more on a treadmill, I want to build up to run 5 miles. Right now I run / walk 3.5 miles, still do weight lifting a couple of times a week.

fyi, my current weight of 142 is lower than the weight in my profile pic where I was 150 lbs.

I have been taking LEF Ultra Prostate Formula, from blood tests I can see it lowered FT, E2 and DHT. It also lowered my PSA from 4.2 > 3.4.

In a few days I am going to get a bigger blood test, see how it all comes out.

After that blood test, most likely I will stop the ultra prostate formula, when I get to ~135 lbs I will stop losing weight. I will keep up with the protocol I mentioned above, retest at least PSA in 30 days hoping it stays stable. 90% sure I will never use HCG again.

The rise in PSA from 2.4 > 4.2 in a short time caused me to focus on that problem and getting it down, while maintaining my total T at 690-1200. Be nice if PSA was lower than 3.4, but I am OK with 3.4. (I had no symptoms of BPH, no indications of cancer, but I needed to stop PSA from rising if I could.) (BTW, cancer is really rare in my family.)

 

[Gianluca]

I had tried out pregnenolone several times in my life.

Once over 20s ago, not on TRT with lowish T. Didn't see a benefit, stopped.

In 2018 while on TRT, HCG, DHEA I took pregnenolone for a short time, didn't see a benefit and stopped.

IMO I was inconsistent with pregnenolone.

Right now with TRT (TU/Nebido) I take ~12.5 mg DHEA and 12.5 mg pregnenolone, no HCG, (+metformin) I feel good, higher libido, the only "complaint" I have is sleep maintenance. I tend to get up around 3:00 AM. I am being consistent with both Preg and DHEA.

IMO there are still too many moving parts to really isolate one factor from another.

I have been steadily losing weight, about 6 lbs a month, but now for the last 2 weeks I only lost a lb, went down from 168>142. But this means I have been in calorie deficit. Last night I woke up and was pretty hungry, I think at least partially that is what woke me up.

I had also been running more on a treadmill, I want to build up to run 5 miles. Right now I run / walk 3.5 miles, still do weight lifting a couple of times a week.

fyi, my current weight of 142 is lower than the weight in my profile pic where I was 150 lbs.

I have been taking LEF Ultra Prostate Formula, from blood tests I can see it lowered FT, E2 and DHT. It also lowered my PSA from 4.2 > 3.4.

In a few days I am going to get a bigger blood test, see how it all comes out.

After that blood test, most likely I will stop the ultra prostate formula, when I get to ~135 lbs I will stop losing weight. I will keep up with the protocol I mentioned above, retest at least PSA in 30 days hoping it stays stable. 90% sure I will never use HCG again.

The rise in PSA from 2.4 > 4.2 in a short time caused me to focus on that problem and getting it down, while maintaining my total T at 690-1200. Be nice if PSA was lower than 3.4, but I am OK with 3.4. (I had no symptoms of BPH, no indications of cancer, but I needed to stop PSA from rising if I could.) (BTW, cancer is really rare in my family.)

I asked because last month a stopped the HCG and I thought I noticed the OTC 50mg Pregnenolone started working even better, I even mention this to Dr Saya and asked if any other of his patients has experienced the same. I did a little research on HCG and I understand, because it mimics LH, it could possibly help in the conversion of downstream hormones therefore leaving less Pregnenolone available, so if you would HCG with Pregnenolone would leave less available Pregnenolone so you "feel" it is not working as much, does it make sense?

 

[DragonBits]

I asked because last month a stopped the HCG and I thought I noticed the OTC 50mg Pregnenolone started working even better, I even mention this to Dr Saya and asked if any other of his patients has experienced the same. I did a little research on HCG and I understand, because it mimics LH, it could possibly help in the conversion of downstream hormones therefore leaving less Pregnenolone available, so if you would HCG with Pregnenolone would leave less available Pregnenolone so you "feel" it is not working as much, does it make sense?

It's possible, how did Dr. Saya respond to your question?

IMO pregnenelone's effects seem highly subjective, so it would be more difficult to determine if they are real or imagined.

I prefer if the effects show up in a blood test. Maybe a test of neurotransmitters would show a change? Neurotransmitters affect sleep, mood, depression and anxiety.

Every time I look into the details of hormone cascades, different enzymes and paths affected it turns much more complicated with hormone feed backs, hormones affected by supplements, endocrine disruptors can also alter the amount of hormone synthesized how fast it is degraded, the same hormones generated by different glans/cells, or the way in which a target cell responds.

There are serum levels of hormones like DHT that don't reflect levels inside of glans like the prostate. Brain levels of hormones that are only located within the brain.

HCG isn't LH, it isn't bioidentical, and does behave differently than LH. Whether that matters or not, I don't know. When testosterone is too high, the body lowers LH to maintain a level that the body deems is appropriate. Introducing HCG while also maintaining a high level of testosterone isn't a natural situation. Does that create any problems, again, I don't know.

We tend to focus on endocrine hormones because they are easy to measure and are distributed in serum.

But there are that we don't often talk about..

• Paracrine action: the hormone acts locally by diffusing from its source to target cells in the neighborhood.
• Autocrine action: the hormone acts on the same cell that produced it.

My point is it's very difficult to predict what introducing a exogenous hormone will result in after all these influences. I could see a hormone producing a result in the first few days then feed backs negating those results after a time.

Testosterone alone seems pretty simple.

 

[Gianluca]

It's possible, how did Dr. Saya respond to your question?

He said he had no patient reporting the same, but this will be part of discussion on the next follow up

HCG isn't LH, it isn't bioidentical, and does behave differently than LH. Whether that matters or not, I don't know. When testosterone is too high, the body lowers LH to maintain a level that the body deems is appropriate. Introducing HCG while also maintaining a high level of testosterone isn't a natural situation. Does that create any problems, again, I don't know.

that is a good point, once I dropped the HCG I thought my mind was more "clear" and better thinking, but again it might be because there was more Pregnenolone available since dropping HCG could equal less conversion of it to downstream hormones

 

[DragonBits]

He said he had no patient reporting the same, but this will be part of discussion on the next follow up


that is a good point, once I dropped the HCG I thought my mind was more "clear" and better thinking, but again it might be because there was more Pregnenolone available since dropping HCG could equal less conversion of it to downstream hormones

If you think HCG is "using up" pregnenolone then just take more preg while taking HCG. Not a suggestion, just a logical solution to your supposition.