Wondering if anyone can clear up something for me about the anti AI crowd. You all know there are the guys that are not only against AI but that also say they don’t even check E2. They say they aren’t concerned about it and as long as your dose is right you don’t need to check it. But what they never say is “does the actual E2 level matter”. In other words, let’s say at your current dose, your T level is 1800 and your E2 is 90. And let’s say you don’t feel good. Would they say it’s nothing to do with estrogen since estrogen doesn’t matter? Or would they said “yes E2 matters but should be controlled by adjusting T dose?” In other words what im asking is do they say estrogen just doesn’t matter at all so don’t check it. Or are they saying estrogen definitely matters, and should be kept in range by adjusting T dose?
Systemlord
Member
Here’s the problem I have with this scenario, the testosterone is sky high and the E2 is also high, yet the estrogen gets the blame instead of excess androgens.
In other words, high estrogen is by default bad and sky high testosterone isn’t!
So you would say that if the person doesn’t feel good with those levels, the high T could be the problem and not necessarily E2. Are you one that thinks estrogen doesn’t matter?
Phil Goodman
Active Member
The anti-AI crowd is basically a course correction from the old days of “everyone should take an AI with testosterone so they can keep estrogen in check”. I do think it’s a bit of an over-correction, but in the vast majority of cases you should be able to supplement testosterone without using an AI, and there are lots of health benefits to estrogen. But obviously there are people who may benefit from the use it doses correctly, though again that addition should be very low on the list of things a person should attempt when dialing in a protocol. Two things that the fanatics say which I think actually takes away from their argument….one is that the body will always balance test and estrogen levels perfectly. For as complex as the body is and as different as people are, it’s absurd to assume that aromatization is the one process that never fails in anyone and that is forever and ever perfectly balanced in people. This is compounded by the fact that many of these same people will slam HCG as useless. Last I heard, the testicles are responsible for about 25% of the aromatization in men, and shutting them down will significantly impact that process. But again many seem to think that while the countless other processes going on in the body can experience issues/disruptions/sub optimal performance, aromatization is always perfect. Again, I’m not saying they aren’t pointing in the right direction by discouraging AI use, just that they over-correct in their statements which is detrimental to their case. The second thing is that they say “measurements are useless because it’s serum levels so we have zero idea what’s going on in the body based on blood results. We can clearly watch E2 bloodwork trail testosterone bloodwork, so it is giving us an idea of what’s going on in the body. Not sure why they’re so adamant about, unless, again, it’s just to try and over-simplify it to persuade people away from AIs.
Maybe it’s just me, but I tend to think(hope) people are smart enough to hear a nuanced case and realize that AIs should probably only be used in a rare handful of people, and that they don’t need things simplified down to the point of being inaccurate before they’ll take the advice and avoid them.
Maybe it’s just me, but I tend to think(hope) people are smart enough to hear a nuanced case and realize that AIs should probably only be used in a rare handful of people, and that they don’t need things simplified down to the point of being inaccurate before they’ll take the advice and avoid them.
What about my question of, do they not think estrogen matters at all, or do they think it does matter but should be controlled by adjusting T dose?
FunkOdyssey
Seeker of Wisdom
It sounds like you are trying to make logical sense of their position which is not possible.
The actual E2 level does matter, because the circulating hormone you are measuring enters tissues and exerts effects. They tend to focus on the intracrine or paracrine functions of estradiol when formed by aromatase in tissues, which is a real aspect of our biology and a nugget of truth supporting their position. At the same time, they deny the reality that it is also an endocrine hormone, limiting the explanatory power of their belief system.
Doesn’t matter what they say, specifically, imo. Everything in the body works in a balance system. It’s not a question whether too high E2 will start to lead to negatives, as well as positives, at a certain point. That’s just facts. What’s arguable/ debatable is at which point, does E2 start to elicit these negatives. That point is different for everyone, I’m sure. Here’s a pretty good vid cortexlabs put out about that group and the whole E2 debate.
Also, remember, high E2 can inhibit thyroid function, to a degree. Just one reason u don’t want E2 too too high. And that’s a big reason, imo.
Also, remember, high E2 can inhibit thyroid function, to a degree. Just one reason u don’t want E2 too too high. And that’s a big reason, imo.
Nelson Vergel
Founder, ExcelMale.com
If you deem your estradiol high, and you take anastrozole and feel great on it, then nothing studies say will convince you to leave estradiol alone.
Blocking estradiol is like blocking DHT. But what I have been saying for years does not really matter, no matter how much data we have on the subject. I give up.
Blocking estradiol is like blocking DHT. But what I have been saying for years does not really matter, no matter how much data we have on the subject. I give up.
Estradiol Estrogen Tests for Men
Estradiol in men is an important hormone. Estradiol is a hormone produced from the aromatization of testosterone to counter testosterone's effect on cholesterol, heart, and bone. Estradiol is involved
Phil Goodman
Active Member
Yes they think it matters and will quickly point to the health benefits. When presented with issues that it may be causing they’ll revert to “well we have no idea what your actual levels are because we can’t measure them so you can’t say it’s due to estrogen”. They’ve developed their position in a way that it can’t be disproven.
For the people who do think excessively high estrogen levels can cause issues, yes, they’ll generally say it should be controlled by changing the dosage and/or frequency of injections. And I tend to fall in that camp(with regard to impacting E2 levels that way). With that being said, I still realize there may be men out there who for whatever reasons need higher doses of test for symptom resolution while also overaromatizing…and in those cases an AI may be beneficial. But I would also recommend starting with a miniscule dose to make sure you take the lowest effective dose if going that route while maintaining good estrogen levels. And that brings us to another thing they oversimplify…they seem to think anyone taking an AI is crashing their levels through the floor. Obviously that will cause health issues, but it could be possible to use a tiny amount to bring your E2 levels down while keeping them near the top of the recommended range.
But again I do think they are generally pointing in the right direction by recommending that people avoid AIs. I just think they’ve over-simplified the argument to the point that it leaves holes in it.
Phil Goodman
Active Member
Well, there are lots of different people with different views….even in a group as narrow as “anti AI people”
Oh, also don’t forget, estrogen is the main stimulator of prolactin production, in the male body. So as estrogen increases, so doesn’t prolactin, usually. They tend to follow eachother, up or down. So sometimes the things we blame on estrogen, could in fact have something to do with prolactin levels. Just something else to keep in mind
Systemlord
Member
Absolutely! Remember, testosterone is an androgenetic hormone and estrogen isn't an androgenetic hormone.
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Systemlord
Member
And serotonin and this is where the so-called estrogen symptoms could be coming from, estrogen affecting the balance of other hormones.
Too much serotonin will cause ED, just ask anyone on an SSRI!
What effect does estrogen have on serotonin?
SSRI prescriptions got us all thinking the more serotonin the better, but that’s far from the truth. Excess serotonin can cause a host of issues. Now dopamine, ya I’ll take more of that thank u lol
Systemlord
Member
Estrogen can increase serotonin levels in the same way it can increase prolactin. Both of those spells trouble with erections. High serotonin and high prolactin can cause fatigue and sleepiness.
FunkOdyssey
Seeker of Wisdom
Right. I recently took my E2 down from 87 pg/mL to 55 pg/mL with .1 mg anastrozole twice weekly. At that point, I still had higher serum E2 than probably 98% of men. It's hard to imagine I put myself at high risk for low estrogen health complications in this scenario.
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testiculus
Active Member
The dose of the AI matters. Many take way too much and then have negative results and become anti-AI. For me, it doesn't matter how much I lower my testosterone dose, I always do better with some AI. I've settled on taking 30 mcg of anastrozole every 4 days. Typically my E2 is ~40 pg/ml with this dose.
Have you tried any other ways to control E2? Aromasin, DHT derivatives?
Same question for @FunkOdyssey
FunkOdyssey
Seeker of Wisdom
I tried primo for a short while and it caused significant joint pain and some prostate inflammation. I know some prefer to use DHT derivatives to control E2, but I honestly feel like microdosing anastrozole is more benign. At least, it feels healthier and more sustainable for me personally, based on my limited experience. I have yet to try another form of AI or DHT derivative. Maybe masteron or proviron would be friendlier?
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