12 Week "Cycles" of TRT

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Encore

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I'm 40 years old, and like many other men considering TRT, I'm somewhat worried about making a permanent commitment and the possible long term effects. I realize that many men have been on for 20 plus years with no ill effects, and only positive things to say, but I'm considering testing it out for a limited number of months and then seeing how quickly my natural levels can be brought back to normal.

Has anyone tried this? I'm going to consult with a couple of physicians, and probably Defy Medical in the near future. I'm considering asking my doctor if 12 weeks on and then a period of recovery, perhaps only clomid/HCG, would be worth trying. I'd feel a lot more comfortable cycling on and off if I felt a significant benefit while on, and was able to recover my natural testosterone production as well without any permanent effect.

I know there is evidence of a slower recovery of natural test production after 12 weeks, but I'm not sure whether those studies were on supraphysiological dosages or not.

If a "cycle" makes sense, could it be stretched to 16 weeks?
 
Defy Medical TRT clinic doctor
TRT is either a do or do not thing. It's not steroids. It's not a "cycle", and properly managed there are no health risks in and of itself, assuming you're otherwise healthy. In TRT there isn't a supraphysiological dose or level of TT. TRT is about restoring natural levels and I think that you're totally confused on the subject.

If you're not willing to commit to it, then you shouldn't start. If you were to stop, you'll just go back to your low T state, you body isn't going to recover or get back to normal and you'll lose everything you just did for 12 weeks, which is about how long it takes to reach a real homestasis in the body.

I think if you want to try something lower grade before you start Testosterone, I'd think your Clomid and HCG would be a worthy trial.

Simple as that.
 
anabolics and hcg.jpg

You are better off staying on TRT + HCG. If you ever wanted to get off, this approach could speed HPTA recovery,
 
hpta dysfunction treatment.jpg

Here are some approaches to HPTA recovery. This graph is missing HCG, which could be administered with TRT and then used with clomiphene.

To be honest, this on-off approach is difficult and usually not successful in older men. It's easier just to stay on TRT + HCG.
 
Thanks Nelson. The Finnish study indicates what I have heard for the last 15 years about attaining supra physiologic levels for 12 weeks or less. Essentially, normal test production returns within about the same length of time that you were taking exogenous test. What I'm trying to understand is whether there is any indication of how quickly natural test production returns to normal after lets say 16-20 weeks of TRT at physiologic levels.

To Chris and CoastWatcher: I appreciate your responses, but I asked the question because I haven't seen any suggestion that cycling would be harmful. I understand why you may choose to stay on TRT permanently... because it makes you feel better permanently, but if there are no drawbacks aside from returning to normal test levels after experiencing temporary benefits of TRT, then that would not be a strong argument against trying TRT for some length of time and then seeing how I feel after coming off of TRT for some length of time.

Let me explain an important reason that I'm considering TRT now. I was a good athlete in my 20s and 30s and suffered a bad knee injury that left me with permanent "runner's knee" (patella femoral pain syndrome). I've been exercising and trying to build strength back in that leg for almost 8 years now, but I still have pain that prevents me from using heavier weights and gaining strength. It's still visibly smaller than my good leg. I have jogged, with a little pain, and played racquet sports frequently for the last 5 years in addition to some cycling. Basically I have exercised a lot and the muscle in that leg is still not where it should be.

Like many 40 year old men, I experience and deal with the fact that I don't feel quite the same as I did when I was in my early 20s, and I know that it would be easier to regain the muscle and strength in my weak leg if my test levels were at upper normal levels as I feel like mine are probably low. My first priority is to gain strength in my leg and see whether the pain decreases and my kneecap starts tracking properly so that I can return to higher activity levels. Then I'd like to see whether higher activity levels and less pain would make me feel better generally.

Since my injury, I've thought about how many athletes have used steroids to recover quickly from injury and when I read that patella femoral pain syndrome may be caused by muscle weakness, it was a no-brainer. My surgeon refused to prescribe testosterone, and I feel like I've lost many years of playing sports that I enjoy, and possibly caused permanent damage to my knee as my condition speeds the process of cartilage decline. I am expected to need a knee replacement in anywhere from 5-15 years, and I'd like that to be 15-25, not 5.

I know getting the muscle back and maintaining strength would be easier if I stay on TRT, but I'd like to see what I can accomplish in 12-16 weeks on TRT and go from there, without having a permanent impact on my natural test production (without TRT).

Have any posters mentioned trying a similar strategy?
 
Cycle it if you want, you just had three pretty learned people tell you it's not how this is done, and 1 highly credible authority on the subject, so, do as you wish.
 
Encore said:
Thanks Nelson. The Finnish study indicates what I have heard for the last 15 years about attaining supra physiologic levels for 12 weeks or less. Essentially, normal test production returns within about the same length of time that you were taking exogenous test. What I'm trying to understand is whether there is any indication of how quickly natural test production returns to normal after lets say 16-20 weeks of TRT at physiologic levels.

To Chris and CoastWatcher: I appreciate your responses, but I asked the question because I haven't seen any suggestion that cycling would be harmful. I understand why you may choose to stay on TRT permanently... because it makes you feel better permanently, but if there are no drawbacks aside from returning to normal test levels after experiencing temporary benefits of TRT, then that would not be a strong argument against trying TRT for some length of time and then seeing how I feel after coming off of TRT for some length of time.

Let me explain an important reason that I'm considering TRT now. I was a good athlete in my 20s and 30s and suffered a bad knee injury that left me with permanent "runner's knee" (patella femoral pain syndrome). I've been exercising and trying to build strength back in that leg for almost 8 years now, but I still have pain that prevents me from using heavier weights and gaining strength. It's still visibly smaller than my good leg. I have jogged, with a little pain, and played racquet sports frequently for the last 5 years in addition to some cycling. Basically I have exercised a lot and the muscle in that leg is still not where it should be.

Like many 40 year old men, I experience and deal with the fact that I don't feel quite the same as I did when I was in my early 20s, and I know that it would be easier to regain the muscle and strength in my weak leg if my test levels were at upper normal levels as I feel like mine are probably low. My first priority is to gain strength in my leg and see whether the pain decreases and my kneecap starts tracking properly so that I can return to higher activity levels. Then I'd like to see whether higher activity levels and less pain would make me feel better generally.

Since my injury, I've thought about how many athletes have used steroids to recover quickly from injury and when I read that patella femoral pain syndrome may be caused by muscle weakness, it was a no-brainer. My surgeon refused to prescribe testosterone, and I feel like I've lost many years of playing sports that I enjoy, and possibly caused permanent damage to my knee as my condition speeds the process of cartilage decline. I am expected to need a knee replacement in anywhere from 5-15 years, and I'd like that to be 15-25, not 5.

I know getting the muscle back and maintaining strength would be easier if I stay on TRT, but I'd like to see what I can accomplish in 12-16 weeks on TRT and go from there, without having a permanent impact on my natural test production (without TRT).

Have any posters mentioned trying a similar strategy?
Click to expand...

Read through your paragraphs. You are just parcing the term TRT to fit & justify your rationale of what you want it to be. I don't mean this in a confrontational way, but no matter what we say to you, it just seems you want to convince us that this a sound medical solution to your situation.

I'm not condemning (or condoning) what you are proposing, but just get the facts straight, it is not TRT. What you are proposing is a Basic 101 Steroid Cycle. Millions have done it before you, and I'm sure millions will do it from this point forward. TRT is just that, "Testosterone Replacement Therapy". Physicians prescribe /administer testosterone for those who have little to very low natural levels of this hormone, hence "replacement". Your surgeon did not prescribe you testosterone, "because" he/she deemed your endogenous production to be at a normal state.

If you want to do 12 to 16 weeks for the aspects that you mentioned, then do a PCT when you finish to restore your HPTA, as it will suppress during this time frame. If that happens then you might have to be put on TRT! :rolleyes:
 
Chris,

I understand your comparison of my proposal to a traditional steroid cycle, but I started this thread with the hopes of learning more about the difference between the success (how quickly and completely natural test production returns and the odds that it won't return to normal) of PCT after a supraphysiological steroid cycle (what I would call a Basic 101 Steroid Cycle), vs. high-normal physiological levels in a TRT "cycle".

My surgeon didn't prescribe test for multiple reasons, the first being he hadn't read studies, hadn't read professional literature on the subject, didn't know who Nelson is, Dr. Crisler, or Dr. Morgentaler, or anyone else knowlegable on the subject. I'm fairly confident that there are many orthopedic surgeons who often prescribe test to help speed patient's recovery, prevent muscle loss, etc. for men with low-normal ranges.

I don't doubt that you are correct that I will feel better and may want to stay on TRT permanently, but I'm trying to learn about the risks associated with cycling TRT, and everything I have seen seems to relate to supraphysiologic levels when we are talking 10-12 week cycles.

If I find any studies/data I'll post a new thread in the event anyone is interested.
 
Vince, I haven't had blood work yet. I'm going to consult with Defy and do blood work in the near future. I think my levels were low normal years ago, so I'm expecting the same or lower now. My exercise and nutrition are pretty dialed in and I'm in very good shape, so I suspect that my levels are not going to improve much from whatever they are now without TRT.

I will post as soon as I have them. Thanks for response.
 
 
Thanks, HarryCat. Surprising that scientists are just getting around to studying this. The East Germans and other eastern bloc nations were doing this in 60s and 70s. I haven't read much about this subject for 15 years and I figured there would be a lot of studies and data now, but perhaps not.
 
Just saw this post from Nelson in another thread in response to a question from a 38 year old man with test levels slightly below the normal range... if some younger men maintain higher natural test levels after a clomid based PCT, this seems to support my idea. Even if the odds are low, if there is some evidence of this effect, why not try it? Nelson mentioned a possibility of total levels remaining over 500 ng/dl. Even if there was a bump from under 200 to 350-400 and those levels were maintained for a few years, it would make sense to me.


3. If i start TRT will I need to be on it the rest of my life?

Yes. You can get off it but you will go back to your low T status.

However, you can also do an experiment now. See if by any lucky chance Clomid was able to reset your HPTA by stopping it and testing your testosterone 6 weeks later. You never said what your T level is on Clomid. Some young guys get lucky and remain with TT over 500 ng/dL after stopping Clomid after post cycle therapy. Only one way to find out.
 
Encore I just wanted to add not to get stuck on your Total Testosterone levels.
Some guys have medium to high levels of total T but very little Free and Bioavailable Testoserone which is what makes them feel as if they were low.
Wait for your bloodwork to see what you are actually producing.
I have restarted twice-once on my own and once with clomid.
Results were the same but I responded quicker with clomid.
My normal range is 500 TT and 6.9-7.0 Free T.
I felt better when on TRT and my Free T was at 14 verse the low side at 7.0
 
Encore - me thinks you are waaaaaay over thinking it! The dose used for TRT is not a cycle dose. I can't say anything that hasn't already been said.
 
I appreciate all of the responses, and want to summarize a few things that I have learned from this site that suggest that shorter cycles may be effective, especially for "younger" men.

1. sometimes, natural test production returns to a higher level after PCT and remains at that higher level for many "younger" men for a significant length of time (I still can't figure out if I am "older" or "younger" at 40). As I have held a royal flush in a poker game, I figure I might get lucky here too. Come to think of it, I don't think my opponent paid me off on that royal flush though...

2. that benefits appear well within 12-16 weeks. In other words, TRT dosages are high enough for you to experience significant benefits within months. Some posters claim to feel better "immediately" or within days of their first dose of TRT, very much like men who take supra physiological doses claim to,

3. that PCT can generally prevent a permanent reduction in natural test production after discontinuation of even large amounts of test/steroids DEPENDING on the # of weeks you are taking exogenous test/steroids. There is certainly evidence that natural test production can usually be restored very quickly after cycles of 10-12 weeks... I was hoping to find more on slightly longer cycles of perhaps 16-20 weeks, but maybe there isn't much data on this,

4. that no one thinks that there would be negative consequences from a 12-16 week cycle even though it isn't recommended,

5. that everyone thinks (and I know you are all right), that most people are likely to feel significantly better staying on TRT permanently,

6. (I think I read this here, but maybe it was on a different site) that Dr. Scally used to have his patients stop taking exogenous test every 12 months and recover their natural test production, which took anywhere from 1 month to 3 years, to ensure that his patients could discontinue TRT if they ever needed to.

It appears that Dr. Scally is not necessarily thought to be "conservative" in his administration of TRT, but this strategy seems extremely conservative, following the principal of less is better. If the cycles were 3-4 months instead of one year, the upper range of the time required to restore natural test production would presumably be much lower.

The science on whether exogenous test increases or decreases various health risks seems to be all over the place, and we will know a lot more 10 years from now than we do today. I'm not convinced one way or the other on the various studies on heart attacks, cancer, etc., but I still subscribe to the idea that less is better. I'd like to test out this "less" strategy since there doesn't seem to be any significant risks involved beyond permanent TRT.

After all of this research, I going to feel like I wasted a lot of time if my test levels come back entirely normal.
 
Hi Encore,

I appreciate where you are coming from. As someone who is eligible but as yet not on TRT, the idea of a lifelong commitment and possibly permanently losing fertility or natural T production is unpleasant.

What I'm hearing from you is the question of basically: if you did a Test cycle at physiologic, rather than supra-physiological dosages, and then used PCT, would you see any long term and persistent health benefits?

It seems a reasonable question, though perhaps one more suited to an anabolics forum than a TRT forum. Most of the guys here on TRT have committed to long term use, and the prevailing orientation among users here would likely mirror that.

Perpetual use rather than cycling also helps to differentiate TRT patients from 'steroid' users in the popular imagination. And considering the uphill battle testosterone and other anabolics have in establishing their legitimacy among clinicians and researchers, those on the front line advocating for TRT may highlight the line in the sand between a lifetime therapy and what could be interpreted as 'recreational' testosterone use.

In the fight for the hearts and minds of the public, one step at a time. First- anabolics are not inherently evil. Then- sometimes raw numbers are insufficient for diagnosing a functional deficiency. Perhaps only later do we emphasize the performance enhancing and/or libertarian elements, and entertain the legitimacy of 'supplemental' use.


Anyway, I also wanted to point you toward Danger and Play, the website of Mike Cernovich. He is co-author to an upcoming book written by Jay Campbell on TRT, and has written extensively about his own TRT experience. He also as an experiment discontinued use, cold turkey, no PCT. He was able to get his T levels back to normal through lifestyle habits and using some of the posture exercises he emphasizes (based on research showing a link between hormone levels and posture). Here's a link: http://www.dangerandplay.com/2014/07/30/raised-testosterone-level-naturally-670/

So it is possible. I can also say personally that when I raised my T from 327 to 566 in a few months, I was aggressively using some of these posture exercises. My subjective experience was mixed, but my lab values did improve.

Good luck Encore.
 
Beyond Testosterone Book by Nelson Vergel
Any update Encore? I'm in a similar situation and very interested in any more you've found on this and/or your results.

It seems those here who might be able to comment are getting hung up on terminology. It may be more correct to call it a low dose cycle rather than a TRT cycle. But I don't see how what you're saying should be unclear. I'm guessing they just don't have any pertinent knowledge in this area though.
 
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