“Sweet spot E2” vs test levels

[Tremonti22]

My question is the latest research shows that the so-called sweet spot for estradiol is not possible because all men are different. What I’m interested in is how come that doesn’t apply to testosterone levels why is it not better for me to have a level of 1500 for example. If all men are different and this applies to estrogen levels and higher levels of estrogen maybe OK then why aren’t higher levels of testosterone OK in some men. I ask because when I run 150 mg per week compared to 250 mg per week I am basically correct with my blood levels at the 150. However I feel much better and function much more efficiently at 250, and have no sides

 

[Vince Carter]

Referencing totals is flawed thinking when you should be concerned about the Free T, and more importantly, SHBG.

 

[Tremonti22]

Referencing totals is flawed thinking when you should be concerned about the Free T, and more importantly, SHBG.

Right, but that’s not my question

 

[Vince Carter]

Yet it is the answer though you don't like it.

 

[user_joe]

I disagree. There is absolutely zero evidence that being elevated a little above physiological levels is detrimental to your health. There’s actually reason to think it MIGHT be beneficial. An absolute answer is not out there though. The correct studies for that specific situation have not been done.

 

[Vince]

I think there is a sweet spot for testosterone levels. I always liked my total testosterone around a thousand. At least I believe that's my sweet spot. For my estrogen levels I've never felt anything even when it was naturally low or somewhat high. The only reason I test my estrogen, so it doesn't go too low, into unhealthy levels.

 

[Tremonti22]

Doctors push E2 sweet spot @ 20-30, however that’s now being debunked. I’m just curious why so much focus on a specific range with regard to free test

 

[Systemlord]

Doctors push E2 sweet spot @ 20-30, however that’s now being debunked. I’m just curious why so much focus on a specific range with regard to free test

There really are not enough studies looking at Free T levels as they correspond to symptoms. Men seem to experience low testosterone when Free T dips as low as 15 pg/mL (range 6.8-21.5), symptoms seems to improve when at the top or higher (20-25 pg/mL).

 

[Vince]

Doctors push E2 sweet spot @ 20-30, however that’s now being debunked. I’m just curious why so much focus on a specific range with regard to free test

I think the main concern is, not getting your estrogen levels too low. It also seems like when it gets above 60 it can cause issues.
When some members have low shbg it can cause many issues, the biggest complaint. It feels like you're injecting water.

 

[madman]

My question is the latest research shows that the so-called sweet spot for estradiol is not possible because all men are different. What I’m interested in is how come that doesn’t apply to testosterone levels why is it not better for me to have a level of 1500 for example. If all men are different and this applies to estrogen levels and higher levels of estrogen maybe OK then why aren’t higher levels of testosterone OK in some men. I ask because when I run 150 mg per week compared to 250 mg per week I am basically correct with my blood levels at the 150. However I feel much better and function much more efficiently at 250, and have no sides

As we know most concern themselves with TT numbers when FT is what truly matters as it is the unbound active fraction of testosterone responsible for the positive effects.

The FT bioactive fraction of testosterone is 2-3% and most men need their FT 2-3% of TT in order to experience relief/improvements of low t symptoms.

What dose of T one needs to achieve a healthy level of FT( 2-3%) comes down to ones SHBG levels and individual differences in genetics, sensitivity of the AR (androgren receptor), polymorphism of the AR and CAG repeat length.

Regarding FT levels depending on the above factors some men will do well with a TT in the 600-800 ng/dL of the physiological range as oppose to others who do better with a TT at the higher end or above the physiological range 1200+ and above.

Of course there are men with very high SHBG or men (older men and former steroid abusers) with AR resistance who may need to run a higher TT well into the supra-physiological range 1500+ in order to overcome the resistance and achieve a healthy FT.

Trt doses commonly prescribed are usually 100-150 mg/week and in some cases 200 (not as common) and 200+ in others (rare).

In your situation it depends on what TT/FT level you are achieving on 150 mg/week.

200 mg/week for many men would put their T levels well into the supra-physiological range but again SHBG is going to play a big role on what FT level is achieved at such dose.

By all means if you feel well overall on 150 mg/week but as you say feel better on 250 mg/week so be it as long as your blood work is healthy I see no issues but what TT/FT level are you hitting on 250 mg/week as for most 250mg/week is basically a low steroid dose and well beyond needed for trt.

The purpose of trt is to replace physiological levels of testosterone in order to experience relief/improvement of low t symptoms and to improve ones physical/mental wellbeing.

One has to draw a line when we use the word feel best as one can feel good at 200 mg/week, better at 250+ and so on.

Majority of low T symptoms regarding areas such as energy/mood/libido/erectile function/body composition/physical recovery are usually achieved when hormones are in a healthy range.

Excess T as in very high supra-physiological levels 2000+ is in no way needed to achieve relief/improvement of low T symptoms and the only true benefit to running such high levels would be for the sole purpose of gaining muscle/strength.


Again sure there are men who need 200 mg/week or possibly slightly higher but 250mg/week would be a low dose steroid cycle for most and when using testosterone/AAS for the sole purpose of muscle enhancement 250-500 mg/week is the range where many start.

My SHBG is 30 nmol/L just under mid-range (10-60 nmol/L) and I inject 150 mg/week (75 mg every 3.5 days).....my TT trough on average 1200-1300 ng/dL and my FT is double the top end of the range.

Overall I feel great and have been on the same protocol for 2 years.....no a.i. or hcg use.

 

[madman]

Doctors push E2 sweet spot @ 20-30, however that’s now being debunked. I’m just curious why so much focus on a specific range with regard to free test

Mainly because excess FT is not needed to function optimally let alone experience relief/improvements of low T symptoms.

The main benefit of having very high TT/FT levels as in well into the supra-physiological range 2000+ ng/dL is muscle enhancement period!

 

[Gman86]

My SHBG is 30 nmol/L just under mid-range (10-60 nmol/L) and I inject 150 mg/week (75 mg every 3.5 days).....my TT trough on average 1200-1300 ng/dL and my FT is double the top end of the range.

Overall I feel great and have been on the same protocol for 2 years.....no a.i. or hcg use.

Do you mind if I ask where your E2 sits?

 

[user_joe]

Mainly because excess FT is not needed to function optimally let alone experience relief/improvements of low T symptoms.

The main benefit of having very high TT/FT levels as in well into the supra-physiological range 2000+ ng/dL is muscle enhancement period!

Again I disagree that this is a settled fact. If you feel even better at 2000 TT you feel better. Simple as that. That’s a benefit. Whether or not that’s the healthiest choice again just hasn’t been settled.

We have some evidence that the higher estradiol levels that come with the higher TT provide health benefits above and beyond someone taking a lower dose.

I don’t even notice better recovery or gains from lifting since my TT went from about 1100 to 1800. I still get sore just as much, and gains I make are slow and more related to training and calories when I look back. Didn’t correlate to raising the dose.

These lab ranges are constantly decreasing and just tell you what’s out there in people. Unhealthy and obese included. I’ve got no desire to replicate their hormones. You’ve already hacked the hpta. The hell with anything below optimizing. I’ll start lowering my dose when I see something in blood work or symptoms that indicates it’s a good idea. I just had this discussion with my dr. We are in agreement.

One last note. Measuring only at trough is good for making sure you don’t have a consistently bad day every week on a regimen. Using those lab numbers to determine if your T or E is too high or whatever when injecting ever few days is stupid imo. For example my TT was 1200 trough when injecting e3.5 days. People on here will say that’s reasonable. Same dose done daily came in over 1600. Surely we can all use excel and do math? The average amount of test in the body is the same. Makes zero sense to me to consider anything other than symptoms in this scenario.

 

[madman]

I disagree. There is absolutely zero evidence that being elevated a little above physiological levels is detrimental to your health. There’s actually reason to think it MIGHT be beneficial. An absolute answer is not out there though. The correct studies for that specific situation have not been done.

Again I disagree that this is a settled fact. If you feel even better at 2000 TT you feel better. Simple as that. That’s a benefit. Whether or not that’s the healthiest choice again just hasn’t been settled.

We have some evidence that the higher estradiol levels that come with the higher TT provide health benefits above and beyond someone taking a lower dose.

I don’t even notice better recovery or gains from lifting since my TT went from about 1100 to 1800. I still get sore just as much, and gains I make are slow and more related to training and calories when I look back. Didn’t correlate to raising the dose.

These lab ranges are constantly decreasing and just tell you what’s out there in people. Unhealthy and obese included. I’ve got no desire to replicate their hormones. You’ve already hacked the hpta. The hell with anything below optimizing. I’ll start lowering my dose when I see something in blood work or symptoms that indicates it’s a good idea. I just had this discussion with my dr. We are in agreement.

One last note. Measuring only at trough is good for making sure you don’t have a consistently bad day every week on a regimen. Using those lab numbers to determine if your T or E is too high or whatever when injecting ever few days is stupid imo. For example my TT was 1200 trough when injecting e3.5 days. People on here will say that’s reasonable. Same dose done daily came in over 1600. Surely we can all use excel and do math? The average amount of test in the body is the same. Makes zero sense to me to consider anything other than symptoms in this scenario.

Feeling better as in how....your going to tell me one needs to run levels that high in order to experience relief/improvement of low t symptoms such as more energy, positive effects on mood, healthy libido and erectile function along with descent body composition changes?

I call bulls**t.....and again sure if one has very high SHBG or possible AR resistance (older men or former steroid abusers) they will likely need to run a very high TT in order to achieve a healthy FT but do understand that there is a large percentage of men without the above issues that are on trt and would never need to run levels this high.

A large percentage of men do extremely well and achieve a healthy FT whether running TT in the 600-800 ng/dL range or 1000+ range.

We are talking replacement here and the line becomes blurred when one starts using the I feel better or I feel best as one can feel good on 200 mg/week.....than all of a sudden it is 300 mg/week.....and so on.

How high of levels do you really think one would want to run if they had absolutely no interest in lifting weights in order to gain muscle.....not too many I bet.

Higher T levels above a point does not equate to more energy/better mood/ stronger libido/better erectile function.....now if we are talking better gains in muscle/strength and enhanced recovery than higher T levels are needed!

No one is saying that there is anything wrong with running levels slightly higher above the physiological range and in some cases such as possible AR resistance or high SHBG than one may need to run levels even higher but levels at 2000+ are not needed in any way to feel optimal.

If you barely noticed any major difference in gains from 1100-1800 is because levels would need to be higher before big improvements are noticed and even with the proper diet/training protocol.....ones genetics plays a huge role and will have the final say on how well you respond.

A large percentage of men on trt use 100-150 mg/week and do extremely well.....sure some may be using 200 mg/week but highly doubtful most would need to run higher doses than this.

250 mg/week would be a low steroid dose and when one is looking to solely improve muscle mass/strength than the 250-500 mg/week range is what would be needed and even than gains would be better on the higher end.

I have many friends I grew up around that did extremely well using 250 mg/week of test only when they first started cycling.

The internet is littered with all the steroid forums and most push that a starting dose is 500 mg/week of test which is laughable as anyone that knows if one has good genetics and their diet/training is on point than they can grow extremely well on a 250 mg/week test only cycle.

Than you have the idiots that do not even compete.....you know the average gym rat that uses 600+ mg/week or god forbid the 1 gram a week in order to make gains when in fact they were cursed with shit genetics.

Many of the pros back in the 60-70s did well using 200-400 mg/week of test along with reasonable doses of deca and d-bol.

Again I have no issue if one wants to run high levels barring blood work is healthy and they are not experiencing any negative side effects but what gets me heated is when one goes on to say that very high levels of T are always better or needed in order to truly benefit from trt.

It's a f***ing joke!

There is such a thing as threshold regarding testosterone and AR saturation.

 

[Tremonti22]

All I’m saying is, I was told by the doc my test was low when I started (139) so I began 150mg week. Never really noticed any different feeling. Now that I’ve bumped it to 250, indeed, much better feeling. I’m going to roll with that

 

[tmaxey1]

All I’m saying is, I was told by the doc my test was low when I started (139) so I began 150mg week. Never really noticed any different feeling. Now that I’ve bumped it to 250, indeed, much better feeling. I’m going to roll with that

I started with a test level of 177. I haven’t had my first follow up labs done yet.

Did you check your T levels at 150mg per week? Are you self medicating or did I doctor prescribe you 250mgs week. It seems like it may be hard to get some doctors to go over this “magical” 200mg week limit that seems to be popular.

 

[user_joe]

Feeling better as in how....your going to tell me one needs to run levels that high in order to experience relief/improvement of low t symptoms such as more energy, positive effects on mood, healthy libido and erectile function along with descent body composition changes?

I call bulls**t.....and again sure if one has very high SHBG or possible AR resistance (older men or former steroid abusers) they will likely need to run a very high TT in order to achieve a healthy FT but do understand that there is a large percentage of men without the above issues that are on trt and would never need to run levels this high.

A large percentage of men do extremely well and achieve a healthy FT whether running TT in the 600-800 ng/dL range or 1000+ range.

We are talking replacement here and the line becomes blurred when one starts using the I feel better or I feel best as one can feel good on 200 mg/week.....than all of a sudden it is 300 mg/week.....and so on.

How high of levels do you really think one would want to run if they had absolutely no interest in lifting weights in order to gain muscle.....not too many I bet.

Higher T levels above a point does not equate to more energy/better mood/ stronger libido/better erectile function.....now if we are talking better gains in muscle/strength and enhanced recovery than higher T levels are needed!

No one is saying that there is anything wrong with running levels slightly higher above the physiological range and in some cases such as possible AR resistance or high SHBG than one may need to run levels even higher but levels at 2000+ are not needed in any way to feel optimal.

If you barely noticed any major difference in gains from 1100-1800 is because levels would need to be higher before big improvements are noticed and even with the proper diet/training protocol.....ones genetics plays a huge role and will have the final say on how well you respond.

A large percentage of men on trt use 100-150 mg/week and do extremely well.....sure some may be using 200 mg/week but highly doubtful most would need to run higher doses than this.

250 mg/week would be a low steroid dose and when one is looking to solely improve muscle mass/strength than the 250-500 mg/week range is what would be needed and even than gains would be better on the higher end.

I have many friends I grew up around that did extremely well using 250 mg/week of test only when they first started cycling.

The internet is littered with all the steroid forums and most push that a starting dose is 500 mg/week of test which is laughable as anyone that knows if one has good genetics and their diet/training is on point than they can grow extremely well on a 250 mg/week test only cycle.

Than you have the idiots that do not even compete.....you know the average gym rat that uses 600+ mg/week or god forbid the 1 gram a week in order to make gains when in fact they were cursed with shit genetics.

Many of the pros back in the 60-70s did well using 200-400 mg/week of test along with reasonable doses of deca and d-bol.

Again I have no issue if one wants to run high levels barring blood work is healthy and they are not experiencing any negative side effects but what gets me heated is when one goes on to say that very high levels of T are always better or needed in order to truly benefit from trt.

It's a f***ing joke!

There is such a thing as threshold regarding testosterone and AR saturation.

I’m not on the same page or way of thinking as you are here. It’s fine if we call levels above a certain amount something other than replacement. I honestly can’t say what men need to feel like trt is beneficial. AFAIK you don’t either as you are only intimately familiar with the effects on yourself, right? My mood is improved seemingly the higher I go. Was true in the very beginning starting at 100/wk on up.

I don’t really care about dose and steroid cycles and gains, but it doesn’t surprise me that some men gain great on lowish doses.

You are simply wrong stating no therapeutic effects of test are realized st higher and higher doses. I’ve experienced that. The rest of it is just 2 different point of views. I want the most benefits I can get from this therapy. I don’t care above surpassing a labe value unless it’s bloodwork indicating I’m doing harm.

 

[tmaxey1]

I’m not on the same page or way of thinking as you are here. It’s fine if we call levels above a certain amount something other than replacement. I honestly can’t say what men need to feel like trt is beneficial. AFAIK you don’t either as you are only intimately familiar with the effects on yourself, right? My mood is improved seemingly the higher I go. Was true in the very beginning starting at 100/wk on up.

I don’t really care about dose and steroid cycles and gains, but it doesn’t surprise me that some men gain great on lowish doses.

You are simply wrong stating no therapeutic effects of test are realized st higher and higher doses. I’ve experienced that. The rest of it is just 2 different point of views. I want the most benefits I can get from this therapy. I don’t care above surpassing a labe value unless it’s bloodwork indicating I’m doing harm.

This brings up the question of what point are test levels harmful vs beneficial. If someone has a level of 2500 but all labs show to be healthy and in a good range then what long term harm is being done?
Higher testosterone equals less body fat and less body fat equals less long term diseases. But how high can one hypothetically go and not have other levels increase? Does red blood cell count increase at 2500 levels ect?

Are there any humans that actually have natural T levels over 2000? Even if there isn’t does that mean it isn’t better to have it? Should we just accept normalcy as optimums.

This is an interesting subject for sure.

If symptoms are cured, patient is feeling great, and labs show no concerns then what’s the problem? On the surface this sounds like quality of life.

 

[Gman86]

@madman

Just curious what your E2 is at. I know you said you feel good, and don’t use an ai. So just wondering. Thanks.

 

[madman]

I’m not on the same page or way of thinking as you are here. It’s fine if we call levels above a certain amount something other than replacement. I honestly can’t say what men need to feel like trt is beneficial. AFAIK you don’t either as you are only intimately familiar with the effects on yourself, right? My mood is improved seemingly the higher I go. Was true in the very beginning starting at 100/wk on up.

I don’t really care about dose and steroid cycles and gains, but it doesn’t surprise me that some men gain great on lowish doses.

You are simply wrong stating no therapeutic effects of test are realized st higher and higher doses. I’ve experienced that. The rest of it is just 2 different point of views. I want the most benefits I can get from this therapy. I don’t care above surpassing a labe value unless it’s bloodwork indicating I’m doing harm.

Point being stressed is extremely high levels of T are not needed to experience relief/improvement of low T symptoms period.

Healthy FT levels is what matters and the free unbound bioactive fraction of T of a male is 2-3% of TT.

Many can achieve a healthy FT with TT levels near or just above the top end of the physiological range and as was stated in cases of very high SHBG or possible AR resistance which would be if anything in older men or former steroid abusers than yes one would need to run a TT a lot higher (1500-1800 ng/dl).

Of course higher T levels up to a point is healthier compared to lower T levels but this higher T level is not to far off from what a normal healthy fit young male could naturally produce and yes we are talking about the top 2.5% of men which have TT levels in the 1000-1200 ng/dL range.

I will say that when looking at the main areas of low T symptoms sure higher T levels may enhance ones mood to a certain degree but running high T levels as in this greater than 1800+ range is not going to result in more energy, better mood, better libido, better erectile function and overall well being.

Even with healthy T levels many other factors can negatively effect ones energy levels and mood (thyroid/adrenal function, lack sleep, poor diet, excess stress (physical/mental), lack exercise and so on.....excess T is not going to cure this.

Even with healthy T levels as you know many other factors can negatively effect ones libido/erectile function (poor vascular/endothelial health, thyroid/adrenal dysfunction, lack of sleep, excess stress (physical/mental) and so on.....excess T is not going to cure this.

Again symptom relief is what truly matters but labs are still critical and we need to keep physiological levels in context here as reference ranges are guidance and sure we do not need to adhere to being in range but it is highly doubtful men need to be running around with 2000 ng/dL T levels in order to benefit from trt.

No healthy young males produces those kind of levels endogenously and to top it off there is a natural 24 hr circadian rhythm where testosterone levels peak in the am and decline (trough) in the late afternoon/early evening and we are not talking about peak levels 2000+ only to be followed by absurdly high trough levels.

At best most healthy young men have a TT of 600-800 ng/dL at peak only to be followed by a 25-40% reduction at trough and they function extremely well.

All hormones need to be kept in balance as testosterone is only one piece of the overall picture.

Sure you can use the analogy that well since my hpga is suppressed and I am now on trt.....might as well make the best of it and run the highest T levels because I feel best as you say.....but again one can say oh I feel best on 200 mg/week than all of a sudden I feel better on 250+ mg/week (which is not a replacement dose).

Call it what you may but 250+ mg/week is a low steroid dose.

Where is the line drawn between replacement doses when you know a good majority of men can achieve a healthy FT using trt doses in the 100-150 mg range.

Anytime we increase T----->e2 will follow and you very well know how many need to start tinkering with an aromatase inhibitor in order to run higher T levels without experiencing sides.

Any time we increase T as in 200 mg/week and higher it can negatively effect lipids.....mainly lowering HDL.

Anytime we increase T----->hemoglobin/hematocrit are increased and you very well know how common that is leading many to jump on the too frequent blood donation bandwagon
only to be followed by the all to common.....oops I crashed my ferritin/iron.

Sure hemo/hemato can be managed if done sensibly and even than most can let levels get a little higher than the reference range without issues but regardless if it leads to no immediate negative effects.....thicker blood is thicker blood and the heart has to work harder.

Big problem here is many are started on high doses of T 200 mg/week from the get go only to be followed by a negative experience in many cases or for the ones that tend to feel well never get a chance to realize that they could very well feel just as good on lower doses.

You see it all the time on the forums.....people thinking that more T is always better.

If you truly feel better running levels in the 1600-1800 ng/dL range so be it but do not come off as if these levels are needed to truly experience improvements in low T symptoms.