Second honeymoon. Will it also crash?

FabianMontescu · Nov 10, 2017

As many people, I started TRT with the gel. After a couple weeks, I felt great. I was not chronically tired anymore, and I had energy to go out, exercise, etc. It lasted for a few weeks, during which my T went from 150 to a meager 300 using Labcorp's scale. Yet, I still felt ok.

Soon, I crashed. Did not want to get out of the bed, exercise, etc. It was even worse than before TRT. This is how I came to know Excelmale: I came hear for advice, and ended up hooking up with Defy. I found out that my SHBG is low, and ended up in a daily propionate regimen, which I started about 2 months after my crash started.

I've been in this regimen for 10 days and now I'm starting to feel great again.

Here's my big worry: will I crash again?

CoastWatcher · Nov 10, 2017

FabianMontescu said:
As many people, I started TRT with the gel. After a couple weeks, I felt great. I was not chronically tired anymore, and I had energy to go out, exercise, etc. It lasted for a few weeks, during which my T went from 150 to a meager 300 using Labcorp's scale. Yet, I still felt ok.

Soon, I crashed. Did not want to get out of the bed, exercise, etc. It was even worse than before TRT. This is how I came to know Excelmale: I came hear for advice, and ended up hooking up with Defy. I found out that my SHBG is low, and ended up in a daily propionate regimen, which I started about 2 months after my crash started.

I've been in this regimen for 10 days and now I'm starting to feel great again.

Here's my big worry: will I crash again?

Keep in mind that it's TRT and anything is possible - BUT - you're on a very different protocol, managed by a medical staff that understands how this game is played. It is very likely you're going to do quite well. I've been injecting on a daily basis for well over two years, it's like night and day compared to the gel regimen that failed me miserably. I'd say that things look very good for you.

Systemlord · Nov 10, 2017

Just out of curiosity how low is your SHBG? If you're on a daily protocol it must be lower than 15. You're in great hands btw. My honeymoon period only lasted 3 days, my SHBG is in the upper teens to lower 20's and I inject EOD.

Vince · Nov 11, 2017

There is a honeymoon effect, until your own production of T stops. I see you're doing daily injections of testosterone propionate, as you know most men use T cyp. I'm wondering why you went with propionate and what's your protocol.

Henry · Nov 11, 2017

Vince said:
There is a honeymoon effect, until your own production of T stops. I see you're doing daily injections of testosterone propionate, as you know most men use T cyp. I'm wondering why you went with propionate and what's your protocol.

Hi,
Wouldn't test prop be a better solution for daily injections? I know the prop ester clears quicker than the cypionate ester. Here's what I Google'd real quick:
"For practical purposes, testosterone cypionate and enanthate may be used fairly interchangeably. The half-life of enanthate is probably about 4-5 days, while that of cypionate is probably about a day longer. Accordingly, both of these clear the body relatively slowly at the end of a cycle, causing a relatively long period where levels are neither high enough to allow much if any further gains, yet not low enough to allow recovery.Testosterone propionate has a much shorter half-life of probably only about 2 days. As a result, clearance of testosterone propionate is quick at the end of a cycle.
By half-life, I mean the time period in which levels of drug drop by 50%. For example, if a drug has a one day half-life, then after one day levels will have fallen to ½, after two days to ¼, after three days to ⅛, etc."

So, from what I'm reading, for daily injections, wouldn't the propionate mimic natural testosterone rhythm of high in the morning and low at night, versus cypoinate or enanthate of high all the time since it takes longer to clear with daily injections?

FabianMontescu · Nov 11, 2017

My SHBG is 6.7 in the LabCorp scale. :-(

FabianMontescu · Nov 11, 2017

I'm using prop because ..., well, because I was told to

I've been told that in my case, because of very low SHBG (6.7 in the LabCorp scale), it would work better. My dose is 17mg/day. I also take HCG 500 UI 2x week and AI 0.15 mg.

@Vince: I know (first hand) that there is a honeymoon effect because it happened to me on the gel. The question is: will it happen *twice*? Or have I had my fill with the gel? As many people here switch from gel to shots, I thought someone might know.

Henry · Nov 11, 2017

You had a honeymoon with gel because it just didn't work. Sometimes it works, and alot of times it doesn't.

You had the honeymoon because when you started the gel, it augmented your natural production. After a while, your body ceases to make testosterone since it sees that you're getting it elsewhere. Now your body shuts down and you're only using the Androgel. It's not enough so the honeymoon is over

Now with injections, what you get is what you get. You don't have to worry about absorption issues, etc. It's a more efficient way so you shouldn't have problems with it.

CoastWatcher · Nov 11, 2017

Henry said:
Hi,
Wouldn't test prop be a better solution for daily injections? I know the prop ester clears quicker than the cypionate ester. Here's what I Google'd real quick:
"For practical purposes, testosterone cypionate and enanthate may be used fairly interchangeably. The half-life of enanthate is probably about 4-5 days, while that of cypionate is probably about a day longer. Accordingly, both of these clear the body relatively slowly at the end of a cycle, causing a relatively long period where levels are neither high enough to allow much if any further gains, yet not low enough to allow recovery.Testosterone propionate has a much shorter half-life of probably only about 2 days. As a result, clearance of testosterone propionate is quick at the end of a cycle.
By half-life, I mean the time period in which levels of drug drop by 50%. For example, if a drug has a one day half-life, then after one day levels will have fallen to ½, after two days to ¼, after three days to ⅛, etc."

So, from what I'm reading, for daily injections, wouldn't the propionate mimic natural testosterone rhythm of high in the morning and low at night, versus cypoinate or enanthate of high all the time since it takes longer to clear with daily injections?

The use of, in my case, enanthate, provides a true steady state, which (of course) isn't the same as the diurnal effect of endogenous testosterone. It's a spectacular success for me and - when offered the opportunity to switch to propionate by my doctor - I chose to maintain what's worked so well. I'm not cycling, and appreciate the heightened libido and overall focus that I've had for over two years of daily test-E.

Vince · Nov 11, 2017

By injecting daily, you're eliminating your highs and lows. My thought would be using testosterone cypionate you would further be decreasing your highs and lows, causing ever less issues.

CoastWatcher · Nov 11, 2017

A

FabianMontescu said:
I'm using prop because ..., well, because I was told to

I've been told that in my case, because of very low SHBG (6.7 in the LabCorp scale), it would work better. My dose is 17mg/day. I also take HCG 500 UI 2x week and AI 0.15 mg.

@Vince: I know (first hand) that there is a honeymoon effect because it happened to me on the gel. The question is: will it happen *twice*? Or have I had my fill with the gel? As many people here switch from gel to shots, I thought someone might know.

It's unlikely you'll see the slump you dealt with on gels. Endogenous production has been shut down, you'll be working now through the balancing act that accompanies the dialling-in process of a TRT protocol. Keep in mind that no honeymoon and no slump doesn't mean instant success. It certainly happens for some, but there are far more cases where some patience is required before the full results of your protocol are realized.

Systemlord · Nov 11, 2017

FabianMontescu said:
My SHBG is 6.7 in the LabCorp scale. :-(

Amazing you felt much of anything with your super low SHBG, we have some members who feel nothing from TRT who have even a little higher SHBG than yours. Your receptors must be sensitive to be able to feel the effects of T.

ERO · Nov 11, 2017

Systemlord said:
Amazing you felt much of anything with your super low SHBG, we have some members who feel nothing from TRT who have even a little higher SHBG than yours. Your receptors must be sensitive to be able to feel the effects of T.

Yes, I am envious of your success. My SHBG ranges from 7 to 14 and daily Prop injections felt like I was injecting water. Congratulations on finding something that works for you!

Vince · Nov 11, 2017

CoastWatcher said:
A

It's unlikely you'll see the slump you dealt with on gels. Endogenous production has been shut down, you'll be working now through the balancing act that accompanies the dialling-in process of a TRT protocol. Keep in mind that no honeymoon and no slump doesn't mean instant success. It certainly happens for some, but there are far more cases where some patience is required before the full results of your protocol are realized.

I'm just wondering is testosterone cypionate available to those in Canada.

Henry · Nov 11, 2017

CoastWatcher said:
The use of, in my case, enanthate, provides a true steady state, which (of course) isn't the same as the diurnal effect of endogenous testosterone. It's a spectacular success for me and - when offered the opportunity to switch to propionate by my doctor - I chose to maintain what's worked so well. I'm not cycling, and appreciate the heightened libido and overall focus that I've had for over two years of daily test-E.

I've always wondered if that diurnal effect even matters. My doc thinks it does and I read that Dr. Crisler thinks so too. They claim that the daily high in the morning and tapering down throughout the day is better since it's natural and it mimics the testosterone of a younger man. But I read that as you get older, the curve gets more linear and the highs and lows even out.

Are there any studies on this? I tried to look for it and I can't find anything.

madman · Nov 11, 2017

Henry said:
Hi,
Wouldn't test prop be a better solution for daily injections? I know the prop ester clears quicker than the cypionate ester. Here's what I Google'd real quick:
"For practical purposes, testosterone cypionate and enanthate may be used fairly interchangeably. The half-life of enanthate is probably about 4-5 days, while that of cypionate is probably about a day longer. Accordingly, both of these clear the body relatively slowly at the end of a cycle, causing a relatively long period where levels are neither high enough to allow much if any further gains, yet not low enough to allow recovery.Testosterone propionate has a much shorter half-life of probably only about 2 days. As a result, clearance of testosterone propionate is quick at the end of a cycle.
By half-life, I mean the time period in which levels of drug drop by 50%. For example, if a drug has a one day half-life, then after one day levels will have fallen to ½, after two days to ¼, after three days to ⅛, etc."

So, from what I'm reading, for daily injections, wouldn't the propionate mimic natural testosterone rhythm of high in the morning and low at night, versus cypoinate or enanthate of high all the time since it takes longer to clear with daily injections?

Testosterone enanthate terminal half life is 4.5 days and propionate is 0.8 days. The main advantage of using propionate vs enanthate ester really comes down to when one starts injecting testosterone as the propionate ester will hit/build up in the system quicker and steady state levels will be achieved much faster than when using enanthate (due to its longer half life) but once steady state levels are achieved either through propionate or enanthate use than switching to daily using either ester would not make much of a difference as you are basically smoothing out the peaks/troughs from injecting daily regardless of the ester. Some on the internet may state that when injecting propionate testosterone levels spike 2hrs later but there is research on the pharmacokinetics of both esters and apparently enanthate causes testosterone levels to spike similarly after injection albeit still maintaining its longer terminal half life.

madman · Nov 11, 2017

Vince said:
I'm just wondering is testosterone cypionate available to those in Canada.

Yes Vince as Depo-Testosterone 10 ml vial (100mg/ml) and than there is also Delatestryl (enanthate) 5ml vial (200mg/ml). I originally started on cypionate and after 8 weeks switched to enanthate due to the higher strength/ml so I could benefit from less injection volume (oil) when doing sub-q abdominal injections. Cypionate and enanthate are two of the most commonly prescribed trt medications in Canada and as far as propionate very rare for doctors to prescribe due to its shorter half life requiring more frequent injections.

Vince · Nov 12, 2017

Henry said:
I've always wondered if that diurnal effect even matters. My doc thinks it does and I read that Dr. Crisler thinks so too. They claim that the daily high in the morning and tapering down throughout the day is better since it's natural and it mimics the testosterone of a younger man. But I read that as you get older, the curve gets more linear and the highs and lows even out.

Are there any studies on this? I tried to look for it and I can't find anything.

Yes, I have read the same thing. A young man testosterone is higher in the morning, as a man ages there's less of a peak.

For years, the recommendation has been to get a testosterone value early in the morning because levels start to drop after 10 or 11 a.m. But the data behind that recommendation were drawn from healthy young men. Two recent studies showed little change in blood testosterone levels in men 40 and older over the course of the day. One reported no change in average testosterone until after 2 p.m. Between 2 and 6 p.m., it went down by 13%, a modest amount, and probably not enough to influence diagnosis. Most guidelines still say it's important to do the test in the morning, but for men 40 and above, it probably doesn't matter much, as long as they get their blood drawn before 5 or 6 p.m.

https://www.harvardprostateknowledg...-thoughts-on-testosterone-replacement-therapy

FeelingLost · Nov 12, 2017

Vince said:
Yes, I have read the same thing. A young man testosterone is higher in the morning, as a man ages there's less of a peak.

For years, the recommendation has been to get a testosterone value early in the morning because levels start to drop after 10 or 11 a.m. But the data behind that recommendation were drawn from healthy young men. Two recent studies showed little change in blood testosterone levels in men 40 and older over the course of the day. One reported no change in average testosterone until after 2 p.m. Between 2 and 6 p.m., it went down by 13%, a modest amount, and probably not enough to influence diagnosis. Most guidelines still say it's important to do the test in the morning, but for men 40 and above, it probably doesn't matter much, as long as they get their blood drawn before 5 or 6 p.m.

https://www.harvardprostateknowledg...-thoughts-on-testosterone-replacement-therapy

Does diurnal effect even apply to guys on TRT?
I mean your natural T production is shutdown. All T comes from a needle the only rhythm is how frequest you inject.

Vince · Nov 12, 2017

FeelingLost said:
Does diurnal effect even apply to guys on TRT?
I mean your natural T production is shutdown. All T comes from a needle the only rhythm is how frequest you inject.

I really doubt that it would apply to me, someone who does daily injections.
All honestly I've never felt a high or low, I even skipped a day and felt no low.

Second honeymoon. Will it also crash?

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