Trial of trt plus enclomiphene

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Steve78

New Member
I’m on 100 mg a week of test plus 300 units hcg every 3 days ... TT is around 700.

Wanting to do an experiment to see if I can increase some natural test going and or increase my LH somewhat. I know it’s prob not going to happen but I want to try it.

So I dropped my hcg and added in 25 mg daily enclomiphene. I’m still on 100 mg test (.21 cc every 3 days). To help the experiment, should I just see how it goes or should I drop the test to 70mg a week? Ie .15cc every 3 days.

Thoughts?
 
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Cataceous

Super Moderator
It probably won't work unless you add gonadorelin to the protocol, as described here. Enclomiphene prevents negative feedback from estrogens at the pituitary and hypothalamus. However, exogenous androgens also exert negative feedback at the hypothalamus, preventing normal function. Administering GnRH in the form of gonadorelin bypasses the hypothalamus.

A simpler way to be more natural is to switch to testosterone nasal gel for your TRT. The short action of the nasal gel greatly reduces HPTA suppression, allowing it to coexist with your own production of LH and testosterone. Enclomiphene might be helpful in the transition, but probably would not be necessary in the long run.
 

Steve78

New Member
It probably won't work unless you add gonadorelin to the protocol, as described here. Enclomiphene prevents negative feedback from estrogens at the pituitary and hypothalamus. However, exogenous androgens also exert negative feedback at the hypothalamus, preventing normal function. Administering GnRH in the form of gonadorelin bypasses the hypothalamus.

A simpler way to be more natural is to switch to testosterone nasal gel for your TRT. The short action of the nasal gel greatly reduces HPTA suppression, allowing it to coexist with your own production of LH and testosterone. Enclomiphene might be helpful in the transition, but probably would not be necessary in the long run.
Instead of nasal gel how about the oral testosterone andriol (test u.)
 

Cataceous

Super Moderator
Instead of nasal gel how about the oral testosterone andriol (test u.)
If I'm remembering correctly this delivery method lies between nasal gel and conventional TRT with respect to HPTA suppression. It's longer acting than the nasal gel, so endogenous production is reduced more, though not as completely as it is with injections and topical formulations.
 

TLawyer

Active Member
It probably won't work unless you add gonadorelin to the protocol, as described here. Enclomiphene prevents negative feedback from estrogens at the pituitary and hypothalamus. However, exogenous androgens also exert negative feedback at the hypothalamus, preventing normal function. Administering GnRH in the form of gonadorelin bypasses the hypothalamus.

A simpler way to be more natural is to switch to testosterone nasal gel for your TRT. The short action of the nasal gel greatly reduces HPTA suppression, allowing it to coexist with your own production of LH and testosterone. Enclomiphene might be helpful in the transition, but probably would not be necessary in the long run.
Do you think there's a benefit to taking enclomiphene and the nasal gel? My thought is that the enclomiphene would better ensure that you don't shut down and keep your baseline T level higher than without while also taking the nasal gel. It's what I'm experimenting with at the moment.
 

Cataceous

Super Moderator
Do you think there's a benefit to taking enclomiphene and the nasal gel? My thought is that the enclomiphene would better ensure that you don't shut down and keep your baseline T level higher than without while also taking the nasal gel. It's what I'm experimenting with at the moment.
Taking enclomiphene with the gel is reasonable in theory, as it's likely to reduce any estrogen-mediated HPTA suppression. I just have lingering reservations about enclomiphene, even though I've had good results with it and probably will use it long-term. In particular the effects of enclomiphene are not so well characterized, and the subjective results seem rather variable between different individuals.
 

Dudley

New Member
I've been on Clomid (no exogenous T, no HCG), for 22 weeks. This is my first experience with any kind of hormone. The change in my labs is big, total T doubling from approx 600 to approx 1200; free T moving from very low outside the reference range to now within the reference range, though still at the lower end of it; and my high SHBG increasing somewhat. The change in my libido varies, an improvement but not a consistent or dramatic improvement, but then it's also been only 22 weeks. Despite the higher total T, any benefits in terms of body composition have been small but not zero; I've put on a small amount of muscle and small amount of fat since I started the Clomid. Am I right in thinking that I am probably recognizing the maximum benefit I personally will get from Clomid? My doc wants me to give Clomid a good, solid try, since it's such a modest intervention. When I mentioned Natesto to accompany the Clomid, he sort of automatically rejected it. So I am definitely interested in your experiences, Cataceous and TLawyer, and any suggestions you have for me. Very open to advice from everyone on here, it's clear you know a lot about the complexities.
 

Cataceous

Super Moderator
... My doc wants me to give Clomid a good, solid try, since it's such a modest intervention. When I mentioned Natesto to accompany the Clomid, he sort of automatically rejected it. So I am definitely interested in your experiences, Cataceous and TLawyer, and any suggestions you have for me. Very open to advice from everyone on here, it's clear you know a lot about the complexities.
Perhaps your doctor would be open to switching to enclomiphene? Tell him that Clomid is essentially enclomiphene plus estrogen (zuclomiphene). There aren't so many guys who really need a lot more estrogenic action. As an added detraction, zuclomiphene has a half-life of 30 days, meaning it will stick around for a long time. If you're in the U.S. then you can probably get enclomiphene through Empower Pharmacy or Tailor Made Pharmacy. If you don't see improvements over time with enclomiphene then I think a trial with Natesto alone would be worthwhile. Combining immediately with enclomiphene muddies the water too much. Best to see what each does by itself before trying them together.
 

TLawyer

Active Member
Perhaps your doctor would be open to switching to enclomiphene? Tell him that Clomid is essentially enclomiphene plus estrogen (zuclomiphene). There aren't so many guys who really need a lot more estrogenic action. As an added detraction, zuclomiphene has a half-life of 30 days, meaning it will stick around for a long time. If you're in the U.S. then you can probably get enclomiphene through Empower Pharmacy or Tailor Made Pharmacy. If you don't see improvements over time with enclomiphene then I think a trial with Natesto alone would be worthwhile. Combining immediately with enclomiphene muddies the water too much. Best to see what each does by itself before trying them together.
Agreed on not combining enclomiphene and Natesto/nasal gel at the same time. I am currently taking both, but I've been on enclomiphene for a year and half and have plenty of labs and subjective history on it to be able to tell any differences that are caused by the recent addition of the nasal gel. Couldn't tell which one was causing things if I started both at the same time.
 

Dudley

New Member
Thanks to both of you, this is super-helpful. TLawyer, what's your experience been being on enclomiphene for over a year? Is it working well for you? About how long were you on it before you got the maximal benefit of it, or are you continuing to have growing benefit even now? I realized Clomid was the two drugs combined, but I was under the impression that the FDA or some agency had nixed the marketing of enclomiphene by itself. Maybe I have that story wrong or partially wrong? And yes, I am in the U.S., in CA.
 

TLawyer

Active Member
Thanks to both of you, this is super-helpful. TLawyer, what's your experience been being on enclomiphene for over a year? Is it working well for you? About how long were you on it before you got the maximal benefit of it, or are you continuing to have growing benefit even now? I realized Clomid was the two drugs combined, but I was under the impression that the FDA or some agency had nixed the marketing of enclomiphene by itself. Maybe I have that story wrong or partially wrong? And yes, I am in the U.S., in CA.
The FDA didn't approve Enclomiphene in the form of Androxal, but you can get it from the compounding pharmacies. i get it from Empower through Defy. Although it wasn't approved, there are studies that support its ability to improve numbers. I think some of those studies also address an improvement in subjective symptoms as well, although as I understand it a lack of subjective improvement is probably why it didn't get approved.

I have had I think an overall good experience with Enclomiphene. I started it after a 6 month run on TRT, and I had stopped TRT and gone cold turkey for about 6-8 weeks. I was still below baseline after that time (I think total T was in the 200's), so I started Enclomiphene and Ibutamoren (for some lingering aches I had). I had a bit of a honeymoon period on energy for a few months. My numbers are pretty good on it (see some of my previous posts), for me it has been trying to find the right dosage and frequency to play with my E2 and Free T levels. It does seem to increase my SHBG level, which hurts my Free T benefits. I do feel subjectively better on it than not on it, but I don't feel like Superman on it because it still puts me at numbers on the lower side of normal (but better than where I was). With that said, there are a million factors that could put someone in a good mood, have a good libido, etc., so I think it's tough to either credit or blame anything I take, but I do think there has been a benefit with Enclomiphene.

My goal with the nasal gel is to see if I can get my numbers higher than on Enclomiphene but still maintain my natural production and better realize some of the benefits of treatment, like a higher libido.
 
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