Oxandrolone and Nandrolone (common availability)

[BigTex]

I don’t really understand why guys get so caught up on certain hormones being ok for HRT and others being taboo. Why is using an ai ok but using 21mg of tren per week not ok?

I don’t understand why we can’t just support guys using whatever they want in their HRT protocols as long as they’re keeping longevity and balance somewhat in mind. Isn’t everyone’s goal here to be happy and enjoy life as much as they can, while enjoying it for as long as they can?

I don’t understand why guys will give others a hard time about using very low dose tren, nandrolone and/ or Oxandrolone, but don’t care if the guy has the worst diet ever, doesn’t exercise, drinks regularly, and couldn’t care less about sleep optimization. I just don’t get why we can’t just support eachother with what makes us happy, instead of judging someone for using any low dose AAS that isn’t testosterone. If someone uses 21mg of tren per week and it makes their life more enjoyable and they’re a better version of themselves to the people around them, and can also maintain health markers where they should be, I don’t see any reason to judge this guy or encourage him to remove the tren from his protocol

The problem I have is the lack of research on trenbolone in humans. This drug for the most part was used in livestock. Only was it marketed for a short period of time in France for human use. I have used it many times before and it is one of my favorite steroids but I know well how harsh it is on the body. Before someone gets on the internet and pushes the use of a drug for TRT purposes, I just believe there should be some sense of responsibility used doing it. There is plenty of research on both long term and short term use of testosterone, very little on many of the other drugs. I have even put up what Oxandrolone and Stanozolol did to my lipid values at low dose and a short period of time. I though these two were very safe. Now I wonder about even Metenolone enanthate.


I have yet to find anything on trenbolone other than cattle and rat studies. France took it off the market years ago for a reason. I am certainly not giving anyone a hard time, just asking questions. As for AI's, after 43 years of using anabolic steroids, I have never used an AI. I see nothing but bad side effects in people I have know that used them, including the times my wife has used them for competition. Especially depression. However, there are certainly lots of people who use anabolic steroids under the guise of TRT when they are actually doing a full blown steroid cycle. I could care a less but that is in NO WAY TRT. I have seen my blood work on low dose tren and it was absolutely horrible, lipid values off the wall They quickly recovered but how much long term damage was done with calcification? Aesthetically I love what tren does to me but at almost 66 years old, I am more worried about staying out of the hospital and living a longer life. Of course this is MY goal and I did make it clear that my goals have changed over the years. But again, the guy I am talking about is not pushing aesthetics but is pushing being safe and longevity, pushing TRT. When I have personally done blood work doing low dose tren E, I see that this is definitely not a safe alternative. Especially when rat studies show what even low doses do to the prostate (BPH +149%) even in short term use.

Trust me. I would be very happy if TRT was really doing 200-300mg of test/wk and stacking 1-2 anabolic drugs on top. I react very well to lower doses and even set 14 world records in powerlifting with 250mg/test enanthate/wk. I feel very good when I look much bigger and am much stronger. But like my wife tells me.....she looks good in black.

I will add this....we do need more research in this area. When our government decided to criminalize the use of anabolic steroids in 1989 we stopped most research all of this has been set back. There is so much to learn and some of these anabolic steroids may be even more healthy for us. Its only been the last few years that we woke up and saw normal testosterone levels are much healthier than low. But to blindly push using any of these drugs for TRT purposes is very irresponsible, especially when you are fortunate enough to have so much attention on the internet. Some of us have spent 30+ years being lab rats getting our information on what to use from guys in the gym.

 

[Gman86]

The problem I have is the lack of research on trenbolone in humans. This drug for the most part was used in livestock. Only was it marketed for a short period of time in France for human use. I have used it many times before and it is one of my favorite steroids but I know well how harsh it is on the body. Before someone gets on the internet and pushes the use of a drug for TRT purposes, I just believe there should be some sense of responsibility used doing it. There is plenty of research on both long term and short term use of testosterone, very little on many of the other drugs. I have even put up what Oxandrolone and Stanozolol did to my lipid values at low dose and a short period of time. I though these two were very safe. Now I wonder about even Metenolone enanthate.


I have yet to find anything on trenbolone other than cattle and rat studies. France took it off the market years ago for a reason. I am certainly not giving anyone a hard time, just asking questions. However, there are certainly lots of people who use anabolic steroids under the guise of TRT when they are actually doing a full blown steroid cycle. I could care a less but that is in NO WAY TRT. I have seen my blood work on low dose tren and it was absolutely horrible, lipid values off the wall They quickly recovered but how much long term damage was done with calcification? Aesthetically I love what tren does to me but at almost 66 years old, I am more worried about staying out of the hospital and living a longer life. Of course this is MY goal and I did make it clear that my goals have changed over the years. But again, the guy I am talking about is not pushing aesthetics but is pushing being safe and longevity, pushing TRT. When I have personally done blood work doing low dose tren E, I see that this is definitely not a safe alternative. Especially when rat studies show what even low doses do to the prostate (BPH) even in short term use.

Trust me. I would be very happy if TRT was really doing 200-300mg of test/wk and stacking 1-2 anabolic drugs on top. I react very well to lower doses and even set 14 world records in powerlifting with 250mg/test enanthate/wk. I feel very good when I look much bigger and am much stronger. But like my wife tells me.....she looks good in black.

I will add this....we do need more research in this area. When our government decided to criminalize the use of anabolic steroids in 1989 we stopped most research all of this has been set back. There is so much to learn and some of these anabolic steroids may be even more healthy for us. Its only been the last few years that we woke up and saw normal testosterone levels are much healthier than low. But to blindly push using any of these drugs for TRT purposes is very irresponsible, especially when you are fortunate enough to have so much attention on the internet. Some of us have spent 30+ years being lab rats getting our information on what to use from guys in the gym.

Amazing reply, very thorough. So 30mg of tren messed with ur labs that much huh? I didn’t realize such a low dose could effect things so negatively. I’m still an advocate for people doing whatever they feel is the best balance of happiness and longevity that suits their life and goals, but I definitely agree that knowledge is power, and ideally more research should be done on these compounds. But obv not holding my breath waiting for that to happen. I’m all about people educating themselves to the best of their ability, and then making whatever decision they feel is best for themselves and their goals.

What dose of Oxandrolone did u use when u were doing low doses? I used 15mg/ day for a few months, but it dropped my SHBG lower than I like it. Dropped it to 11 from 33. I like to keep it in the high 20’s to low 30’s if I can. Didn’t really effect my lipids that bad tho. And didn’t negatively effect my liver or kidney labs much.

I don’t really see Winstrol being that great of a compound to use indefinitely as part of an HRT protocol. Probably too harsh on lipids for the benefits u get. But would obv support anyone that used it in small doses if the pros outweighed the cons for them

I definitely can see the pros of low dose nandrolone far outweighing any possible negatives. Nandrolone is a compound I can definitely see being used indefinitely with HRT. Do u disagree just because of the studies u’ve seen on it not looking too favorable with long term use? I personally don’t really put much weight into studies done on nandrolone, and have seen/ heard of so many positive anecdotes using it that for me, the pros far outweigh any “possible” cons, like I mentioned, when taking dosages around 50-100mg/ week. Possibly a little higher at 125-150mg/ week if needed to achieve benefits like joint/ pain relief

Primo seems to be the safest compound, with the best pros to cons ratio, right after test. While keeping the dose relatively low obv. I definitely can see primo being a beneficial compound to use indefinitely in an HRT protocol. I’ve seen guys post labs using even moderate dose of primo, and their labs were either mostly unaffected, or effected very little. Primo seems like a very benign compound when it comes to side effects and negative effects on labs/ health markers, when used in low to moderate doses.

And I’d argue that most people can easily use up to 300mg of test per week if they wanted, and still keep all their labs and health markers very healthy. Just takes more effort with being strict with diet, sleep and exercise the higher u go obv. But test is a very easy compound to use and keep health markers in a healthy range, within reason. Once u start going higher than 300 or 350 with test, it’s obv gonna become increasingly more difficult, but not impossible. But 300mg and below is easy to keep health markers within range for most guys, as long as ur on top of all other lifestyle factors. Mainly diet, exercise routine and sleep.

 

[BigTex]

Thanks. I do not want to come off as being critical of what others do. That sure would label me as being a hypocrite. As a long time athlete there is not much I have not done including Cheque drops, IGF-1, Insulin/rhGH and even adrenalin. Now I wonder if I was even sane but then what will any of us do to win? But I am now at the point in my life where I hope some of the decisions and risks I took don't come back to haunt me. Yes, tren, even at low doses screwed up my LDL and HDL levels. I worry even more about preventing BHP. I have about 20ml of ten a sitting in my cabinet and am scared anymore to use it. After having a DVT, I won't touch the 30ml bottle of equipoise I also have. I know well that jacks up my RBC. Just because a steroid is low does doesn't necessarily mean that it is save or safe over a long period of time. Most of that data just doesn't exists. Only more recently with testosterone and a few of the esters.

Oxandrolone, the dose was 20mg/d. An embarrassing dose for a guy, especially at my height and weight (6'1"/245lbs). The winstrol was 25mg, I always used testosterone at TRT doses and added 1 more anabolic drug at a very low dose. So I kept equipoise, winstrol, nandrolone, Primobolan and Oxandrolone around the house to use. My wife loves Primobolan and Oxandrolone. She also likes very much the Turinabol. I am scared to even try this one.

I do have about 12 years worth the blood work which I have done about every 3-4 months over the years. So I kind of understand how anabolics react in my body. Since I didn't have a doctor, I had to be my own. I have been playing around with the use of peptides since 2007 when Doc Crisler, Bobaslaw and DatBTrue got involved. Use every rhGH you can imagine since the monkey crap was being sold. Also used kits of IGF-1, Lr3 and DES, MGF. Top that off with years of experimenting with sort acting insulin pre/posts workouts. So I know most of my blood levels at the different doses I did. Again, I can only hope this doesn't come back and bite me in the ass. Never would I recommend that anyone do what I did.

Never did like nandrolone at any dose, even when I got it legally. I never felt like it did anything but add water to my body. No strength, no size, certainly no libido. Like you I feel that Primobolan may be a good drug to look at but the fact it is no longer manufactured in the USA and so many people get screwed in the black market buying bunk primo we may never know anything. I am hoping that places like Brazil will eventually start doing research in that area. My blood work has always been good with primobolin even at some on moderate doses (200-300mg/wk). Never checked T levels though.

I would feel very comfortable suggesting to anyone my age that using TRT doses of testosterone is very easy to control and very safe in conjunction with a doctor monitoring your blood work. I would also say that TRT levels are very independent what may make one guy feel good may not work on another. I was lucky because I pretty much knew what I needed when I started working with my doctor. He initially put me on 200mg ever 7 days and I warned him that that was way too much. So he went 10 days (still too much). I scored a big 2103 when I tested 3 months down the line so now use 100mg/10 days. I have an 830 which is just over the limit. I am good with that as long as my metabolic factors are all kept in line. I am still pretty good size, still pretty strong so I am fine as long as I don't look my age.

 

[BigTex]

I had this study in my files that I completely forgot about. Scientist believe that trenbolone may contribute to neurodegeneration which could lead to an increase risk of Alzheimer's as we age.


Ma F, Liu D. 17β-trenbolone, an anabolic-androgenic steroid as well as an environmental hormone, contributes to neurodegeneration. Toxicol Appl Pharmacol. 2015 Jan 1;282(1):68-76. doi: 10.1016/j.taap.2014.11.007. Epub 2014 Nov 25. PMID: 25461682.

17β-trenbolone, an anabolic-androgenic steroid as well as an environmental hormone, contributes to neurodegeneration - PubMed

Both genetic and environmental factors contribute to neurodegenerative disorders. In a large number of neurodegenerative diseases (for example, Alzheimer's disease (AD)), patients do not carry the mutant genes. Other risk factors, for example the environmental factors, should be evaluated...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Gman86]

Thanks. I do not want to come off as being critical of what others do. That sure would label me as being a hypocrite. As a long time athlete there is not much I have not done including Cheque drops, IGF-1, Insulin/rhGH and even adrenalin. Now I wonder if I was even sane but then what will any of us do to win? But I am now at the point in my life where I hope some of the decisions and risks I took don't come back to haunt me. Yes, tren, even at low doses screwed up my LDL and HDL levels. I worry even more about preventing BHP. I have about 20ml of ten a sitting in my cabinet and am scared anymore to use it. After having a DVT, I won't touch the 30ml bottle of equipoise I also have. I know well that jacks up my RBC. Just because a steroid is low does doesn't necessarily mean that it is save or safe over a long period of time. Most of that data just doesn't exists. Only more recently with testosterone and a few of the esters.

Oxandrolone, the dose was 20mg/d. An embarrassing dose for a guy, especially at my height and weight (6'1"/245lbs). The winstrol was 25mg, I always used testosterone at TRT doses and added 1 more anabolic drug at a very low dose. So I kept equipoise, winstrol, nandrolone, Primobolan and Oxandrolone around the house to use. My wife loves Primobolan and Oxandrolone. She also likes very much the Turinabol. I am scared to even try this one.

I do have about 12 years worth the blood work which I have done about every 3-4 months over the years. So I kind of understand how anabolics react in my body. Since I didn't have a doctor, I had to be my own. I have been playing around with the use of peptides since 2007 when Doc Crisler, Bobaslaw and DatBTrue got involved. Use every rhGH you can imagine since the monkey crap was being sold. Also used kits of IGF-1, Lr3 and DES, MGF. Top that off with years of experimenting with sort acting insulin pre/posts workouts. So I know most of my blood levels at the different doses I did. Again, I can only hope this doesn't come back and bite me in the ass. Never would I recommend that anyone do what I did.

Never did like nandrolone at any dose, even when I got it legally. I never felt like it did anything but add water to my body. No strength, no size, certainly no libido. Like you I feel that Primobolan may be a good drug to look at but the fact it is no longer manufactured in the USA and so many people get screwed in the black market buying bunk primo we may never know anything. I am hoping that places like Brazil will eventually start doing research in that area. My blood work has always been good with primobolin even at some on moderate doses (200-300mg/wk). Never checked T levels though.

I would feel very comfortable suggesting to anyone my age that using TRT doses of testosterone is very easy to control and very safe in conjunction with a doctor monitoring your blood work. I would also say that TRT levels are very independent what may make one guy feel good may not work on another. I was lucky because I pretty much knew what I needed when I started working with my doctor. He initially put me on 200mg ever 7 days and I warned him that that was way too much. So he went 10 days (still too much). I scored a big 2103 when I tested 3 months down the line so now use 100mg/10 days. I have an 830 which is just over the limit. I am good with that as long as my metabolic factors are all kept in line. I am still pretty good size, still pretty strong so I am fine as long as I don't look my age.

Man, again, amazingly thorough and informative reply. Everyone here at excel is very lucky to have u as a member. Ur the perfect balance of having knowledge and experience about pretty much any hormone related compound u can think of, clearly being open minded, and encouraging guys to not make the same mistakes that u might have made over the years, while also being supportive of guys doing what they feel is right for them, as long as they try to learn as much as they can before making those decisions. I think I’m a little too liberal sometimes in regards to encouraging others to do whatever makes them happy lol. People like u are a good voice of reason, with years of experience and bloodwork to back up ur opinions.

Jc, what exactly does ur wife love about primo and Oxandrolone? How it makes her feel mood and energy wise, gym performance, body composition, positive effects sexually, all of the above? Jc why she loves those two compounds specifically. I assume low side effects is the main reasons, but curious what benefits she enjoys from them vs other compounds

That’s awesome that ur able to feel good mentally and physically on such a relatively low dose of test alone, and are able to maintain muscle and strength how u want. Was that hard at all mentally going to such a low dose compared to what u’ve used in the past, in regards to gym performance and body composition? Like did u worry that u would feel weaker and wouldn’t retain/ build muscle how u used to, and wouldn’t recover like ur used to recovering? Seems like ur at a place now where ur mentally good with taking the dose ur on, but was there a transitionary period where it messed with u a bit?

 

[BigTex]

, again, amazingly thorough and informative reply. Everyone here at excel is very lucky to have u as a member. Ur the perfect balance of having knowledge and experience about pretty much any hormone related compound u can think of, clearly being open minded, and encouraging guys to not make the same mistakes that u might have made over the years, while also being supportive of guys doing what they feel is right for them, as long as they try to learn as much as they can before making those decisions. I think I’m a little too liberal sometimes in regards to encouraging others to do whatever makes them happy lol. People like u are a good voice of reason, with years of experience and bloodwork to back up ur opinions.

Jc, what exactly does ur wife love about primo and Oxandrolone? How it makes her feel mood and energy wise, gym performance, body composition, positive effects sexually, all of the above? Jc why she loves those two compounds specifically. I assume low side effects is the main reasons, but curious what benefits she enjoys from them vs other compounds

That’s awesome that ur able to feel good mentally and physically on such a relatively low dose of test alone, and are able to maintain muscle and strength how u want. Was that hard at all mentally going to such a low dose compared to what u’ve used in the past, in regards to gym performance and body composition? Like did u worry that u would feel weaker and wouldn’t retain/ build muscle how u used to, and wouldn’t recover like ur used to recovering? Seems like ur at a place now where ur mentally good with taking the dose ur on, but was there a transitionary period where it messed with u a bit?

Thank you very much for the kind words. I hope all of my years in this can be of some use. I started doing dianabol in 1980 and have been using since then. The odd part about it is my wife has been using just about as long as I have. There is not too many steroids she has not done at one time in her life. When she competed, her former country paid a doctor to monitor her health and provide the drugs she needed to compete in the sport of bodybuilding. That by no means meant she got any better advice than the rest of us who depended on broscience. She likes primobolin specifically because is give her a solid muscle base with few side effects. Anavar is the same. She really started liking Turinabol because it made her very strong and muscular very quickly. This is an old Soviet era drug that was made specifically for women Olympic athletes. Lots of research was done on it. But she also uses test as her base in low dose. Women are not nearly as open as guys in what they take because the stigma surround women using anabolic steroids is MUCH worse that guys.

Gman86, I have said this before, I am very different from most all that are here. I did not get started because of Low T and feeling bad, I got started for athletic reasons. I do it now because its all I know. Being on steroids is normal for me so after 42 years, its kind of late to just get off. So I use to feel normal. If I were to stop after being shut for for decades, I would feel horrible and no doubt my health would decline quickly.

When I 1st started competing the guys in the gym pushed "more is better. I have done 2g of testosterone cypionate a week, 50 dianabol, 5 anadrol and 2-3 parabolin/wk. It did nothing for me but give me side effects like very high blood pressure. I started dropping down the dosages to where I felt like I had found my sweet spot which was 250mg test enanthate/wk. I tried to go up to 300 and just started having trouble controlling my temper. My strength also was hitting all time peaks that I never though I would do. Most people I competed with looked over dosed, red faced and puffy like they would explode, I looked like I could be drug free and easily was able to figure out how to pass drug tests in competitions that tested. No one would even doubt me. I tested in one National meet and the guy who ran the meet was shocked he didn't bust me dirty. He called months after the meet and wanted me to retest after he realized I pulled an 800lb deadlift for a WR. Of course I refused, the meet was already over, I had just has surgery and knew I would never compete again. I have not been drug free in over 42 years. But he had his chance and is still pissy with me over refusing.

Even at my age I am very low body fat, and still pretty muscular. A few months ago I wanted to see what I could do with my wife spotting me on the incline bench and I did 365 for 6 and 315 for 12 reps. If it wasn't for having osteoarthritis in both shoulders, my knee and low back I would still be going very heavy on everything. But have dropped the weight and doing 5-6 sets of 15 reps on everything. Going heavy takes too much out of me mentally and put me in the position of having to think too much about what I do in the gym. I quit competing in 2010 because I tore all three quadriceps and the patella on my right leg squatting. After that massive surgery, I guess I lost the fire to get back on the horse and ride again. So it was an easy progression for me to drop the weight and do more of a BB workout and quite being so driven by strength. I honestly accomplished more than I could ever dream possible. Steroids are just a tool in your tool box, not the key to success in athletics.