Need for Thyroid Supplementation while on TRT.....

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TRicker

Member
@Anonymon and @BillyJ03z I received my labs back...
After trying 2-3 weeks of 25mcgs of T3, followed by 2 weeks of 50mcgs of T3, and labs drawn after waiting around 5 weeks after ceasing T3 supplementation, my thyroid labs were:
TSH: 1.7 (.45 - 4.5)
T4 Free: 1.36 (.82 - 1.77)
T3 Free: 3.5 (2 - 4.4)
Reverse T3: 25 (9.2 - 24.1)

It's bizarre that my thyroid labs did not change much at all after T3 supplementation, including my ReverseT3. Maybe waiting a month after testing brought my levels back to baseline? I think my thyroid labs are good, except for the high RT3, which I'm suspecting is from high cortisol.

Also, my SHBG was lower (14.8) compared to before (17), and my lipids were worse. However, that could've/probably was due to trying a small amount of NPP and a few stanzolol tablets, as I was desperately trying to fix ED, DE, and sensitivity. Neither of which helped.

I'm guessing that the lack of sensitivity could be from elevated (out of range high) hemoglobin and hematocrit? I'm also guessing that my recent weight gain of 25lbs is due to elevated cortisol, which can also lead to ED? I've lifted and have eaten very healthy for 25 years, and have never had trouble losing fat until the last year, despite calorie restriction, intermittent fasting, and trying low carb.

In my case, T3 only supplementation was probably not needed, nor did I gain any perceived benefit from it. Hope this helps!
 
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Anonymon

Active Member
@Anonymon and @BillyJ03z I received my labs back...
After trying 2-3 weeks of 25mcgs of T3, followed by 2 weeks of 50mcgs of T3, and labs drawn after waiting around 5 weeks after ceasing T3 supplementation, my thyroid labs were:
TSH: 1.7 (.45 - 4.5)
T4 Free: 1.36 (.82 - 1.77)
T3 Free: 3.5 (2 - 4.4)
Reverse T3: 25 (9.2 - 24.1)

It's bizarre that my thyroid labs did not change much at all after T3 supplementation, including my ReverseT3. Maybe waiting a month after testing brought my levels back to baseline? I think my thyroid labs are good, except for the high RT3, which I'm suspecting is from high cortisol.

Also, my SHBG was lower (14.8) compared to before (17), and my lipids were worse. However, that could've/probably was due to trying a small amount of NPP and a few stanzolol tablets, as I was desperately trying to fix ED, DE, and sensitivity. Neither of which helped.

I'm guessing that the lack of sensitivity could be from elevated (out of range high) hemoglobin and hematocrit? I'm also guessing that my recent weight gain of 25lbs is due to elevated cortisol, which can also lead to ED? I've lifted and have eaten very healthy for 25 years, and have never had trouble losing fat until the last year, despite calorie restriction, intermittent fasting, and trying low carb.

In my case, T3 only supplementation was probably not needed, nor did I gain any perceived benefit from it. Hope this helps!
Your thyroid did bounce back then, and whatever you’re dealing with would either be something that caused, or unrelated, but it did seem to coincide with the T3 so I’d still say that’s likely. You’d want to work on your hemoglobin and hematocrit either way, depending on how far out of range they are.

I can’t recall but have you had your cortisol tested before? I’ve had similar RT3 numbers with a similar T3 levels and my cortisol’s historically been too low. None of the tests are great but they’re better than nothing, and at least in my case I was consistently too low on the various ones. I can typically fix my dick same day with something like adrenal cortex pills, but you adapt to those quickly and they have other issues. If you wanted a quick way to see whether or not the issue was actually low cortisol, which for someone like me it seems to be, you could try one of those. Klaire Labs makes a higher dose pill, though they have others. One of those in the morning when you wake up, and it’d at least be an easy test to see if by the end of the day you felt better or worse.

If you did suspect high cortisol, Ashwagandha works well for that. I had to stop taking it because my cortisol was already too low, but I did like how I mentally felt better while on it. That ones takes a bit to build up. I like the Gaia Herbs brand best. I like their Rhodiola too, which seems to raise your baseline cortisol output in a way that prevents heavy ups and downs, and is an MAO inhibitor, which extends how far your neurotransmitters go more or less. I tolerate thyroid hormones far better on Rhodiola.
 

TRicker

Member
I can’t recall but have you had your cortisol tested before? I’ve had similar RT3 numbers with a similar T3 levels and my cortisol’s historically been too low
I have a saliva cortisol test scheduled for this week.
So you've had elevated RT3 and your cortisol was low? Very interesting! Everything I've read regarding high RT3 was that it was a result of high cortisol and/or inflammation.
The whole "adrenal fatigue"/cortisol issue is confusing...I could have high cortisol, unless it's high too long which then causes low cortisol and "adrenal fatigue", or it could be high and low at different points during the day.
I think the best way to figure it out, is trial and error. Like you suggested, I'll try an adrenal cortex supplement to increase cortisol for a few days to see how I feel. If that doesn't work, I'll try ashwagandha and phosphorylated serine (Seriphos) to try to lower cortisol.
Have you figured out what to do about you low cortisol?
 

Gianluca

Active Member
Getting my thyroid right was probably more useful to me than test, and I’ve done various things over the years with highly divergent results. Mostly wanted it for gut issues as nothing else helped or budged it as I seem to have actual injuries down there. Still figuring that out. Harder when you have lower cortisol like I do.

I did 1 grain of NDT for a while. Felt a little more emotional while adjusting to it, which in my case I found was from the T4 in it, not the T3. T4 actually has a higher affinity for transport proteins that cross the blood brain barrier, so I mentally feel thyroid effects more from things with T4 than T3, and T3 alone will tend to make me go a little numb, likely from it suppressing T4 since I can fix it within a day or so by just taking T4. Responded well to test and HCG on NDT.

After NDT I was off thyroid for a while, then tried slow release T3. Made my hair great but it shed rapidly and never really grew back to what it was. Sleep was worse. At the same test and HCG dose, my total T dropped and free T almost doubled and my E2 proportionally went up as well. SHBG unchanged. Also experienced complete erectile dysfunction from not being able to feel it down there. Cialis and all else did nothing since I couldn’t feel anything down there. Coming off fixed it in short order. Tried an AI and that didn’t help at all. Tried 25 and 35mcg, things being worse in a dose dependent manner. Also felt super dehydrated and achey when drinking plain water.

Off that, I tried levothyroxine (T4) with another protocol. That had my emotions super high and my dick working great. Just 75mcg. Free T and E2 were still higher than they had been on NDT. Taking Ashwagandha also makes me very readily convert unbound T4 into T3 and had my T3 pretty high (high 4’s). Felt kind of bad when eating. Stopping Ash stopped that in short order. Hair shed a lot.

Tried T3 after that (liothyronine) in 2 15mcg pills spread out after that. Fixed my gut but broke my dick. Hair didn’t shed this time. Splitting up the dose into many mini hits further segmented from that in 25/4mcg doses had my dick working decently. T3 on its own though had me very lethargic. Memory was worse. No motivation. Very low dopamine. Free T and E2 still higher. Last test was weird but almost all of my T was free. SHBG unchanged. Glycogen retention shit no matter what I do. Reading up on it and talking to people, T3 in unbound form has different affinities for different cells than it naturally would since T4 is a transport mechanism, so T3 more affects your muscle cells and heart where as T4 for me had me feeling warmer and such.

Experimented with straight T4 and some T3 hits after that and that’s what I do now. Still figuring that out. I have trouble retaining water in general where I’d want it. T4 is very diuretic and more salt on it literally makes my fingers crack and at times my face bleed. T3 in smaller hits throughout the day seems necessary for me to keep my gut in order and in general T3 is the only thing that really helped that more than anything. Eating some things before that was debilitating at times.

I’m using my blood tests regarding hydration and my gut and dick status there as a guide for where to let it land. T4 typically makes me feel like a super hero if I have some potassium with it.

If anyone wants an easy way to up T4 T3 conversion, Ashwagandha’s got a lot of backing behind it and that’s what it did for me based on blood tests, at least when on thyroid meds in unbound form like levothyroxine. Lowers cortisol too, both of which are why I had to drop Ash. I originally left NDT because of a shortage and I got switched to something else I didn’t react well to and have generally stayed off it since then because I can’t rely on getting it or it not being recalled. Weirdest thing for me on those meds is definitely my free T and E2 jumping up with total T going down and SHBG remaining the same. Last test had my total T at 460 and 300ish of it was free. Didn’t change my test dose or anything else. Doc said maybe my free T went up to balance out the increased E2 conversion which thyroid can verifiably increase, but it’s all been really weird.

Next experiment once my current thyroid protocol sets in is trying to lower my test dose and see what happens. Was on 12iu’s a day and 720iu’s of HCG 3x a week. Going to drop test to 8iu’s and see where my total and free T lands. Kind of scary considering my last blood test at that dose had a 460 total T with almost all of it being free, but I’d like to see what happens as in theory if my free T is so much higher I could get by with less, and I’d like to retain less water in my face.
Did you find the NDT helped with your lower cortisol? If so what was the FT3 level? Thanks
 

Anonymon

Active Member
Did you find the NDT helped with your lower cortisol? If so what was the FT3 level? Thanks
Hard to say. NDT didn’t alter my FT3 levels much. 1 grain had me at 3.4-3.6 I think, before that being 3.2 on the test prior, with 1.5 grains making it .2 higher. More felt worse in some ways and better in others. Also didn’t at all help my gut issues, which was the main thing for me. Usually when I’d add NDT at first I’d feel energetic and better, but then that’d taper off real quick. My Total T and Free T numbers were higher on the same test dose on NDT, with unbound T3 and T4 both making my Free T almost double and my E2 go up by 20-30% with my total T dropping a lot. Based on cortisol tests, NDT didn’t budge it. I actually felt about the same when I dropped NDT. Better at first because I tried something else and then about the same with my FT3 dropping to 3.0.

I mostly got off NDT because of the many recalls and no longer having access to it. T3 in smaller hits is seemingly superior for me when it comes to managing whatever’s going on with my cortisol.
 

Anonymon

Active Member
Did you find the NDT helped with your lower cortisol? If so what was the FT3 level? Thanks
I also wasn’t aware I had low cortisol for most of my time on it and hadn’t distinguished my many different issues because there were so many going on all at once it took years to sort out what was what and what was related and unrelated. One big issue I had was an inability to feel most bodily sensations, so when I got that in a better place I found I’d been having some things happen to me for a while I wasn’t even aware of. Low cortisol was on the table as an option at the time and my morning number wasn’t the best but I had figured I probably had higher cortisol back then or it wasn’t the issue because for most people that’s the case. I still have about a year’s worth of NDT because I stock up when I buy things but since it never made my core gut issues better and there were so many issues with getting it and recalls and I wouldn’t be certain if I could get it long term, it didn’t feel like a long term solution for me.

It did have the least negative sides of all the things I tried. Also most likely the least benefits. At least for what I prioritize most. Probably in my case because if your body is mismanaging it’s hormones and you give it a form that it has to manage on its own, it’s still more likely to mismanage it, where as with a straight T3 or T4, you’re forcing the issue. If your issue isn’t mismanagement, NDT would be superior for most people I imagine, but thyroid med reactions are highly variable I suppose. With NDT it didn’t so much matter when I took it but with T3 or T4 it matters immensely. T4 in the morning and my dick breaks and sometimes I shit all day. T4 at night and I’m waking up to go pee at full staff and can boner by just thinking about having a boner. T3 hydrates me while T4 mostly dehydrates me. It’s been interesting testing out and monitoring all these things and how they interact. Wish I’d never have needed to know any of this or been on a forum like this but it’s been enlightening and helped me with work stuff too as it’s related in my case. I imagine results would be different for many others as well since we’re all different.
 
Last edited:

Gianluca

Active Member
Hard to say. NDT didn’t alter my FT3 levels much. 1 grain had me at 3.4-3.6 I think, before that being 3.2 on the test prior, with 1.5 grains making it .2 higher. More felt worse in some ways and better in others. Also didn’t at all help my gut issues, which was the main thing for me. Usually when I’d add NDT at first I’d feel energetic and better, but then that’d taper off real quick. My Total T and Free T numbers were higher on the same test dose on NDT, with unbound T3 and T4 both making my Free T almost double and my E2 go up by 20-30% with my total T dropping a lot. Based on cortisol tests, NDT didn’t budge it. I actually felt about the same when I dropped NDT. Better at first because I tried something else and then about the same with my FT3 dropping to 3.0.

I mostly got off NDT because of the many recalls and no longer having access to it. T3 in smaller hits is seemingly superior for me when it comes to managing whatever’s going on with my cortisol.

what brand of NDT were you using? were you taking it on empty stomach? I started the Thyroid back in 2018, dr john Crisler had me starting with half grain NP Thyroid then a full grain, baseline FT3 was 3.0, one grain brought my FT3 to 4.2 or so. Something I realized is that when I started the Lugols iodine, I only needed half grain to bring my FT3 to 4.0. Most recently only a 1/4 of a grain brings my FT3 from 3.0 to 3.7 with only 1.25mg of Lugols iodine. Impressive. And I see the difference in body composition, energy and mood.

Since 2018, I stopped the thyroid twice, and each time I do, I feel my digestion slows down, like most of the time something is stuck in my gut/stomach, which sometime I think it may be some visceral fat developing or worsening as well, low SHBG guy here
 

Anonymon

Active Member
what brand of NDT were you using? were you taking it on empty stomach? I started the Thyroid back in 2018, dr john Crisler had me starting with half grain NP Thyroid then a full grain, baseline FT3 was 3.0, one grain brought my FT3 to 4.2 or so. Something I realized is that when I started the Lugols iodine, I only needed half grain to bring my FT3 to 4.0. Most recently only a 1/4 of a grain brings my FT3 from 3.0 to 3.7 with only 1.25mg of Lugols iodine. Impressive. And I see the difference in body composition, energy and mood.

Since 2018, I stopped the thyroid twice, and each time I do, I feel my digestion slows down, like most of the time something is stuck in my gut/stomach, which sometime I think it may be some visceral fat developing or worsening as well, low SHBG guy here
I was put on Nature, NP, and WP at various points, which was another reason I was getting fed up with it since they did all hit me differently and I had no control over staying with a brand. I don’t recall at the moment which I did the best on but they did indeed act differently.

One comfort I’ve found is that when I feel bigger down in my gut in short order, I know it’s gas and bloat because I can make it go up and down very quickly. Hydrocortisone immediately puts fat all over me in the worst places, but that may in part be because my diet’s intended to raise cortisol, and if I take it while on that, I might just be storing saturated fat at a higher rate. Cortisone Acetate was the best, but harder to source, and nobody in the US scripts it, even if they’re willing to script HC.

I’ve tried higher dose iodine and it would typically help a lot the following day, then I’d get used to it and taper off and feel worse in short order. I might try it again at some point since my protocol’s different and if I identify something that was off, I at times go back and try other things to see if it hits me different. Typically does, though not always in a good way. This is all so immensely complex it’s hilarious.

If I take T4 in the morning, my dick breaks and I might shit my pants and sleep is probably worse. If I take it at night, my digestive track slows and I get more dehydrated and my dick’s better and so’s sleep. It’s not like test where you feel things more gradually. I feel things the most when making changes on thyroid meds, which might be from the shear stimulation of it. Add rhodiola onto that, and T4 starts dehydrating me so fast if I have potassium that I get marks on my face, and those bleed if I have too much salt. Rhodiola+T3 doesn’t do that and might do the opposite. You can come up with complex reasons for it all, and I know they have different binding affinities for different kinds of cells and so much about this I wish I didn’t know, but I laugh at this point when I think I’ve figured something out and if I just take this at this time it’ll do this since it reliably has, then I try it and it’s completely different and I have to figure it out.

Pregnenolone’s still been the biggest game changer for me, alongside T3 for my gut.

My SHBG seems unbudgable at around 25-26. More test, less test, more or less thyroid in any form. 25-26. Even before TRT.
 

BillyJ03z

Active Member
I was put on Nature, NP, and WP at various points, which was another reason I was getting fed up with it since they did all hit me differently and I had no control over staying with a brand. I don’t recall at the moment which I did the best on but they did indeed act differently.

One comfort I’ve found is that when I feel bigger down in my gut in short order, I know it’s gas and bloat because I can make it go up and down very quickly. Hydrocortisone immediately puts fat all over me in the worst places, but that may in part be because my diet’s intended to raise cortisol, and if I take it while on that, I might just be storing saturated fat at a higher rate. Cortisone Acetate was the best, but harder to source, and nobody in the US scripts it, even if they’re willing to script HC.

I’ve tried higher dose iodine and it would typically help a lot the following day, then I’d get used to it and taper off and feel worse in short order. I might try it again at some point since my protocol’s different and if I identify something that was off, I at times go back and try other things to see if it hits me different. Typically does, though not always in a good way. This is all so immensely complex it’s hilarious.

If I take T4 in the morning, my dick breaks and I might shit my pants and sleep is probably worse. If I take it at night, my digestive track slows and I get more dehydrated and my dick’s better and so’s sleep. It’s not like test where you feel things more gradually. I feel things the most when making changes on thyroid meds, which might be from the shear stimulation of it. Add rhodiola onto that, and T4 starts dehydrating me so fast if I have potassium that I get marks on my face, and those bleed if I have too much salt. Rhodiola+T3 doesn’t do that and might do the opposite. You can come up with complex reasons for it all, and I know they have different binding affinities for different kinds of cells and so much about this I wish I didn’t know, but I laugh at this point when I think I’ve figured something out and if I just take this at this time it’ll do this since it reliably has, then I try it and it’s completely different and I have to figure it out.

Pregnenolone’s still been the biggest game changer for me, alongside T3 for my gut.

My SHBG seems unbudgable at around 25-26. More test, less test, more or less thyroid in any form. 25-26. Even before TRT.
How much Pregnenelone are you taking? I was taking 30mg Preg and it put my level at 20% of the range.. then I bumped Preg up to 50-75mg and I stayed at the 20% range... I don't notice any difference on/off preg... on a side note, my Progesterone slightly increased while on Preg.
 

Anonymon

Active Member
How much Pregnenelone are you taking? I was taking 30mg Preg and it put my level at 20% of the range.. then I bumped Preg up to 50-75mg and I stayed at the 20% range... I don't notice any difference on/off preg... on a side note, my Progesterone slightly increased while on Preg.
400mg in the morning right now from Klaire Labs on Amazon, sometimes Double Wood. At 100mg my levels were still really low. Haven’t had a test at 400mg yet on preg since I’ve been playing with thyroid a lot and haven’t settled on that yet, but it’ll be on my next test. I’ve tried 30mg and didn’t get much out of it. Maybe a little at first but it was meh.

Personally since I feel so much better on that much preg I don’t care what the level comes back as but it’d be nice to know.
 

BillyJ03z

Active Member
400mg in the morning right now from Klaire Labs on Amazon, sometimes Double Wood. At 100mg my levels were still really low. Haven’t had a test at 400mg yet on preg since I’ve been playing with thyroid a lot and haven’t settled on that yet, but it’ll be on my next test. I’ve tried 30mg and didn’t get much out of it. Maybe a little at first but it was meh.

Personally since I feel so much better on that much preg I don’t care what the level comes back as but it’d be nice to know.
Did you get any bloating on preg? I upped my Preg and DHEA at one point and had really bad bloating and I couldn't figure out which was causing it...

Also, how long did it take you to notice an improvement on 400mg of preg?
 

Anonymon

Active Member
Did you get any bloating on preg? I upped my Preg and DHEA at one point and had really bad bloating and I couldn't figure out which was causing it...

Also, how long did it take you to notice an improvement on 400mg of preg?
I dropped DHEA a while back. I actually felt better mood wise on it in many ways but it helped a lot since my cortisol’s low and they seem to compete. It also bloated my face more it would seem. DHEA made me less bloated internally from faster churning intestines, but my T3 regime is balancing that out nicely.

Preg does increase my water retention and probably does cause minor bloating, but nothing major in my case. On my stomach in particular it did in the beginning, near the bottom. When I took fludrocortisone it did a similar thing in a more pronounced way. Nelson also mentioned preg raised his blood pressure and other signs that pointed to higher cortisol and aldosterone in himself, so that’s at least two anecdotal accounts that say it can increase cortisol and aldo at that dose, one from me who’s actually taking a bunch of cortisol for longer periods and fludrocortisone which mimics aldo, and one from a guy that just knows his body and the signs of stuff and fathered the online TRT type movement here.

I noticed the improvements on preg within 3 days. Majorly in my case. I also came in this from PFS though, and one of the main things there is postulated to be reduced allopregnenolone in the brain and elsewhere. May be the case that preg in that high of a dose is mostly for us PFS guys, but who knows. I also benefit greatly from more HCG at 720iu’s 3x a week, and that’s also thought to up that too in a more indirect way, alongside 5AR.
 
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