Fast Metabolizers?

drkelp

Member
Anybody have any theories on why one guy does great on 100mg test/wk and others (like myself) struggle to get their say free test in a good range? I remain curious. Could adrenal or thyroid be a reason?
 

JA Battle

Active Member
Yes, thyroid and adrenal output have influence on cellular turnover of hormones and things such as shbg. Low shbg usually correlates with hypothyroidism and low growth hormone levels. These things are relevant as is your current injection frequency.

What is your shbg level and injection frequency? It could be that by trough time your free t is low because total t is also low. This is because you are injecting infrequently and would benefit from more frequent injections.
 

JA Battle

Active Member
your shbg is not bad as most men are in between 25-40.

you inject too infrequently. I inject daily. 5.5mg of testosterone enanthate daily and 3mg of testosterone propionate daily. This has my numbers in between 700-1000 daily.

you could split your dose and try 2 times weekly. By the end of the week your testosterone has fallen too much.

also, you don’t need to have an upper 20’s or higher free testosterone to do well. It usually causes more symptoms in the long run without much benefit.
 

madman

Super Moderator
Shbg=36.2
inj. freq. Once/wk

I replied to you in a previous thread.....post labsand that it is using the most accurate assays TT (LC/MS-MS) and FT (Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration).

Otherwise, you stating:

Anybody have any theories on why one guy does great on 100mg test/wk and others (like myself) struggle to get their say free test in a good range?

Unless you have had your trough FT tested using the most accurate assays such as the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration (next best) then no point in claiming (struggling to get FT in a good range) such.

Nothing worse than people claiming that they are not hitting a healthy let alone high enough FT yet they have never tested it using an accurate assay to know where it truly sits on such protocol (dose T/injection frequency).
 

drkelp

Member
I would have to ask my doctor which test is used for FT. I gave the numbers they have provided so far. I would like to become an advanced user in the future and inject more frequently as that seems like generally a much better approach. Also having access to things like enanthate are intriguing. Still wondering why effects are so vastly different from one man to the next.
 
Unless you have had your trough FT tested using the most accurate assays such as the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration (next best) then no point in claiming (struggling to get FT in a good range) such.

I see on a lot of places emphasizing the correct testing of FT. I agree most places they use innacurate methods.

But isnt calculating it from SHBG and Albumin accurate enough? In the end all values are relative in some sense, but the testing methods of total testosterone, shbg and albumin are very reliable on most places as much as Im aware of.
 

JA Battle

Active Member
I don’t even look at free t. My total t is top of range. My shbg is reasonable. My free t ends up somewhere where it is suppose to be. I have less control of my shbg anyways.

Maybe in extreme cases it’s important to look at free t. To verify symptoms. Guys should just hit close to top of range with total t. And try to get to the root cause of why they have such an extreme shbg if they do have one.
 
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I don’t even look at free t. My total t is top of range. My shbg is reasonable. My free t ends up somewhere where it is suppose to be. I have less control of my shbg anyways.

Maybe in extreme cases it’s important to look at free t. To verify symptoms. Guys should just hit close to top of range with total t. And try to get to the root cause of why they have such an extreme shbg if they do have one.
The reference range in my country has dropped to 800. At 800 I feel hypogonadal, I need mean values between 1100-1300 to feel good.
 

madman

Super Moderator
I see on a lot of places emphasizing the correct testing of FT. I agree most places they use innacurate methods.

But isnt calculating it from SHBG and Albumin accurate enough? In the end all values are relative in some sense, but the testing methods of total testosterone, shbg and albumin are very reliable on most places as much as Im aware of.

Much more involved when it comes to SHBG: T binding.

I would not rely on the outdated calculated methods especially in cases of altered SHBG!


*We have previously observed similar allosteric coupling between the monomers of dimeric SHBG upon testosterone binding (49). The overly simplified linear models with 1:1 stoichiometry have overlooked the complexities in the dynamics of the binding of testosterone to HSA and SHBG.


post # 10/11/14
 

madman

Super Moderator
I don’t even look at free t. My total t is top of range. My shbg is reasonable. My free t ends up somewhere where it is suppose to be. I have less control of my shbg anyways.

Maybe in extreme cases it’s important to look at free t. To verify symptoms. Guys should just hit close to top of range with total t. And try to get to the root cause of why they have such an extreme shbg if they do have one.

Unfortunately, most are running absurdly high trough TT/FT levels.

Too many get caught up in that more T is better mentality yet continue to struggle on trt.

These same individuals have no clue how absurdly high their FT level may be as they rely on inaccurate testing methods.

Many are running T levels well beyond what would be needed on trt.

I would not get too caught up in the mindset that.....Guys should just hit close to top of range with total t.

Some men do and will need to run slightly higher TT levels (1000+) to hit a healthy FT level where they feel best and although it is highly doubtful one would need to achieve those absurdly high TT 1600-2000 ng/dL let alone FT levels to experience the beneficial effects of TRT we need to keep in mind that polymorphism of the AR and CAG repeat length (short/long) let alone sensitivity of the AR (androgen receptor) may very well turn out to play a much bigger role than we think.

Even then most would never fall for the needing to keep TT levels within that magical 600-800 ng/dL range of a healthy young male.
 

madman

Super Moderator
The reference range in my country has dropped to 800. At 800 I feel hypogonadal, I need mean values between 1100-1300 to feel good.

If you can truly say that you had given every protocol you have ever tried a fighting chance.....understanding that when starting trt or tweaking a protocol (dose T/injection frequency):

Many fail to realize that when starting trt that not only will your hpta shutdown (2-6 weeks) depending on dose T but hormones will be in flux during the weeks leading up until blood levels stabilize (4-6 weeks) and it is common for many during this transition to experience what we call the honeymoon period where there may be a strong increase in libido/erections and overall euphoric feeling due to increasing T levels/dopamine.

Unfortunately, this is temporary and short-lived for most as the body will eventually adjust.

It is also very common for many men to experience ups/downs in energy/mood/libido/erections/recovery during the transition as the body is trying to adjust which can be very misleading.

Even then do understand that once blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) it will take another 2-3 months for the body to fully adapt to those new levels and this is the critical time period when one should gauge how they truly feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-t symptoms.


When looking at the big picture the first 4-6 weeks is very misleading for most!

2-3 months after blood levels have stabilized if you continue to feel great overall and blood markers remain healthy then one can truly claim that your protocol is effective!



Let alone have no underlying issues (thyroid/adrenals)..... then you can go on claiming that you need to run higher-end levels to feel good let alone reap the overall beneficial effects of testosterone!
 

drkelp

Member
Great stuff Madman. Hard to clearly understand when several parameters(that we know of) are interacting over longer periods of time. Trying to quantify things like neurotransmitters, tricky to say the least. But alot of experience, good sense & clarity in your words.
 
If you can truly say that you had given every protocol you have ever tried a fighting chance.....understanding that when starting trt or tweaking a protocol (dose T/injection frequency):

Many fail to realize that when starting trt that not only will your hpta shutdown (2-6 weeks) depending on dose T but hormones will be in flux during the weeks leading up until blood levels stabilize (4-6 weeks) and it is common for many during this transition to experience what we call the honeymoon period where there may be a strong increase in libido/erections and overall euphoric feeling due to increasing T levels/dopamine.

Unfortunately, this is temporary and short-lived for most as the body will eventually adjust.

It is also very common for many men to experience ups/downs in energy/mood/libido/erections/recovery during the transition as the body is trying to adjust which can be very misleading.

Even then do understand that once blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) it will take another 2-3 months for the body to fully adapt to those new levels and this is the critical time period when one should gauge how they truly feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-t symptoms.


When looking at the big picture the first 4-6 weeks is very misleading for most!

2-3 months after blood levels have stabilized if you continue to feel great overall and blood markers remain healthy then one can truly claim that your protocol is effective!



Let alone have no underlying issues (thyroid/adrenals)..... then you can go on claiming that you need to run higher-end levels to feel good let alone reap the overall beneficial effects of testosterone!

Yes you are right, but I didnt see a point to first invest time in trying how I will feel at 800ng/dl. Before I start TRT me test levels were around 300-500 with SHBG at the top of the range at it made sense to me to target at least 1000.
It turned out Im a bit over responder to test and at 45mg EOD sustanon(160mg weekly) my levels went to almost 1500 :D But I felt good at that levels, with some minor side effects in terms of sleep. Ive never had e2 issue, never had blood counts issues and my lipids did not worsen.
But still I deemed that dose and level is really too high for me and not necessary.

Now Im injecting 130mg enanthate split in two, not a crazy dose, right? In USA clinics massively starting people at 200mg weekly. At such dose I wont be able to sleep, I will be always nervous, always confrontational, will not be able to focus and do my job. My point is my body reacts badly if test is too high and I will l know it. Im not like a friend of mine who feels awesome at 4400.

I will give this protocol enough time, in fact the last days I feel a bit better. I guess that dose will put me around 1100-1300 mean levels between peak and trough.
 

Cataceous

Well-Known Member
... It turned out Im a bit over responder to test and at 45mg EOD sustanon(160mg weekly) my levels went to almost 1500 ...
You were taking more than double the amount of testosterone that the average healthy young man produces naturally, and your serum levels were also more than double those of the average man. How is this unexpected?
 
You were taking more than double the amount of testosterone that the average healthy young man produces naturally, and your serum levels were also more than double those of the average man. How is this unexpected?

Most people on the forums get noticeably lower levels at such doses
 
Most people on the forums are reporting trough values with less frequent injections—weekly or twice weekly, which are a lot lower than peak and average values.

Ive seen significant number of people on ED or EOD injections reporting less values, for example a friend of mine on 210 weekly in ED sub q was getting barely 1000.
What I mean is evryone may get different blood levels on x mg of testosterone weekly. Another extreme case a friend of mine on 160mg sustanon EOD - 2000 ng/dl.
 

Cataceous

Well-Known Member
Ive seen significant number of people on ED or EOD injections reporting less values, for example a friend of mine on 210 weekly in ED sub q was getting barely 1000.
...
No denying there are a few people reporting response-to-dose much lower than normal. Even in the past day:
Contributing factors may sometimes include low SHBG and high body weight. Presumably they also have high-end metabolic clearance rates for testosterone. Only detailed measurements under controlled conditions would adequately explain the reported observations.

The bottom line though is that 3-9 mg is the reported range for daily testosterone production in men, and this probably represents at least two standard deviations about the mean. In other words, exogenous testosterone dosed in this range will produce normal serum levels in the vast majority of healthy men. Translated to TRT, those who need more than about 120 mg T cypionate per week to reach at least low-normal average serum T are uncommon in the population at large.
... Another extreme case a friend of mine on 160mg sustanon EOD - 2000 ng/dl.
This is similar to my own response and is not particularly extreme. Basically, 4 mg of testosterone daily is sufficient to maintain normal serum levels. It presumably does reflect a below-average MCR(T).
 

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