Appropriate Starting Dose for Propionate?

[Cataceous]

Ya due to my SHBG, I definitely hold onto the testosterone longer in my system, and consequently my E2 must stay elevated for longer

The part about testosterone is true, but will be misunderstood; your serum testosterone half-life is independent of SHBG. Higher SHBG makes for a longer excretion time constant, but as I've noted many times, the excretion time constant is on the order of minutes to hours, and is completely overridden by the absorption time constant, which is on the order of days (~0.8 days for propionate, ~5 days for cypionate).

Thus I don't see why estradiol "must stay elevated for longer". For the most part estradiol is simply lagging testosterone. My argument continues to be that for the same testosterone dose, higher SHBG yields higher total hormone levels, but the same free hormone levels.

Conventional wisdom says that estradiol is more of a problem with low SHBG. I suspect this is because the ratio of free testosterone to free estradiol decreases as SHBG goes lower.

It's nice to see that the free estradiol calculator continues to give values that correspond well with your measured values.

 

[antelopers]

The part about testosterone is true, but will be misunderstood; your serum testosterone half-life is independent of SHBG. Higher SHBG makes for a longer excretion time constant, but as I've noted many times, the excretion time constant is on the order of minutes to hours, and is completely overridden by the absorption time constant, which is on the order of days (~0.8 days for propionate, ~5 days for cypionate).

Thus I don't see why estradiol "must stay elevated for longer". For the most part estradiol is simply lagging testosterone. My argument continues to be that for the same testosterone dose, higher SHBG yields higher total hormone levels, but the same free hormone levels.

Conventional wisdom says that estradiol is more of a problem with low SHBG. I suspect this is because the ratio of free testosterone to free estradiol decreases as SHBG goes lower.

It's nice to see that the free estradiol calculator continues to give values that correspond well with your measured values.

Well shbg binds to estradiol as well, so it makes sense that levels would build up higher before it's cleared, right? Or does this guy just have a high rate of aromatase in combination with high t levels?

 

[Cataceous]

Well shbg binds to estradiol as well, so it makes sense that levels would build up higher before it's cleared, right? Or does this guy just have a high rate of aromatase in combination with high t levels?

I think his estradiol levels aren't unusual for the amount of testosterone, and we are talking about borderline supraphysiological levels of testosterone. There's been an ongoing debate about the relative importance of absolute estradiol versus the ratio of testosterone to estradiol. I suspect that both parameters are important, perhaps affecting different things.

SHBG does bind estradiol, but which levels are you saying "build up," and why? My reasoning is based on a quasi-steady state that develops in a two-hour or so time frame. The assumption is that rate of testosterone excretion equals the rate of absorption. We control the absorption rate via injections. Free testosterone is the variable in excretion that must change to meet differing absorption rates brought about by different doses. Estradiol is in turn created from the free testosterone, probably in direct proportion.

 

[antelopers]

I think his estradiol levels aren't unusual for the amount of testosterone, and we are talking about borderline supraphysiological levels of testosterone. There's been an ongoing debate about the relative importance of absolute estradiol versus the ratio of testosterone to estradiol. I suspect that both parameters are important, perhaps affecting different things.

SHBG does bind estradiol, but which levels are you saying "build up," and why? My reasoning is based on a quasi-steady state that develops in a two-hour or so time frame. The assumption is that rate of testosterone excretion equals the rate of absorption. We control the absorption rate via injections. Free testosterone is the variable in excretion that must change to meet differing absorption rates brought about by different doses. Estradiol is in turn created from the free testosterone, probably in direct proportion.

Well if shbg binds estradiol, I would assume that it hangs around the system longer. So that if he's dosing every day, he's creating more estradiol before he has a chance to clear it? Same with the testosterone I would think. More shbg, it stays bound in the system longer.

 

[OxS2]

I think his estradiol levels aren't unusual for the amount of testosterone, and we are talking about borderline supraphysiological levels of testosterone. There's been an ongoing debate about the relative importance of absolute estradiol versus the ratio of testosterone to estradiol. I suspect that both parameters are important, perhaps affecting different things.

SHBG does bind estradiol, but which levels are you saying "build up," and why? My reasoning is based on a quasi-steady state that develops in a two-hour or so time frame. The assumption is that rate of testosterone excretion equals the rate of absorption. We control the absorption rate via injections. Free testosterone is the variable in excretion that must change to meet differing absorption rates brought about by different doses. Estradiol is in turn created from the free testosterone, probably in direct proportion.

If his estradiol levels are like 70 on 17.5 daily, won't mine be crazy high too on 15 daily? Or no because my response can already be seen with cyp?

 

[Gman86]

If his estradiol levels are like 70 on 17.5 daily, won't mine be crazy high too on 15 daily? Or no because my response can already be seen with cyp?

Not necessarily. On cyp, the only time my E2 has gotten as high as 70 is when my total T was 1855. I’ve never even had close to these levels of E2 when my total was around 1000.

Everyone’s differently. It’s just trial and error unfortunately. I would personally start low and go slow if I were you. So I would recommend starting with 12mg/ day.

 

[Cataceous]

If his estradiol levels are like 70 on 17.5 daily, won't mine be crazy high too on 15 daily? Or no because my response can already be seen with cyp?

I think you said you had total estradiol around 30 pg/mL on the equivalent cypionate dose. If you had little or no peak-trough differences then you should expect to have about the same average estradiol with propionate. If with propionate you get bigger hormonal variations then you could expect to measure a lower value at trough.

 

[Cataceous]

Well if shbg binds estradiol, I would assume that it hangs around the system longer. So that if he's dosing every day, he's creating more estradiol before he has a chance to clear it? Same with the testosterone I would think. More shbg, it stays bound in the system longer.

In a technical sense the mean residence times of estradiol and testosterone probably do increase with SHBG, but you're getting about the same average amount regardless of dosing frequency, as long as the average testosterone dose over time is constant. On the other hand, infrequent, large testosterone doses do create greater peak estradiol and lower trough estradiol.

 

[OxS2]

Is there any reason that daily propionate might have a real advantage over daily cypionate?

 

[Vince Carter]

Is there any reason that daily propionate might have a real advantage over daily cypionate?

Prop makes sense on paper, just like daily shots, it's just having a period of being en vogue, if you will. Note too my trip with Prop cost about twice as much as Cyp I had been using. I really don't advocate this false trip that guys are on with daily shots except when you get in to the very toughest of cases.

 

[OxS2]

Prop makes sense on paper, just like daily shots, it's just having a period of being en vogue, if you will. Note too my trip with Prop cost about twice as much as Cyp I had been using. I really don't advocate this false trip that guys are on with daily shots except when you get in to the very toughest of cases.

I consider myself a tough case in that my bloodwork is pretty good but I don't find symptom relief, unless it's one or two days a week. This tells me I'm fluctuating between a sweet spot and out of it, and figured that daily injections would allow me to dial in to feel good almost every day instead of fleeting moments.

 

[Cataceous]

Is there any reason that daily propionate might have a real advantage over daily cypionate?

The definitive advantage of propionate is that your serum testosterone stabilizes in a few days after protocol changes. So if you're trying to get dialed in, using propionate may speed up the process.

More nebulous is the idea of simulating a diurnal rhythm in serum testosterone. There doesn't seem to be definitive information on the extent to which this is possible.

Personally, after a few months on daily propionate I think it is subtly better than my previous EOD enanthate. But I have enough other variations going on that I can't be sure about it.

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

My urologist agreed to prescribing test prop, which is being filled by Empower. He asked if I was okay with injecting daily, to which I said I was, though I'm considering starting with EOD/20 mg.

 

[SSHSSA74]

My urologist agreed to prescribing test prop, which is being filled by Empower. He asked if I was okay with injecting daily, to which I said I was, though I'm considering starting with EOD/20 mg.

Where is your shbg?

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

Where is your shbg?

42

 

[SSHSSA74]

42

that's good for prop.

 

[Willyt]

My urologist agreed to prescribing test prop, which is being filled by Empower. He asked if I was okay with injecting daily, to which I said I was, though I'm considering starting with EOD/20 mg.

My experience is that Prop shines on daily basis versus EOD due to the shorter ester. I can typically feel it spike 5-6 hours after injection. Please let us know if you try EOD and how it compares to daily.

Great thing about Prop is that you can adjust dosage quickly. I can feel the change the same day of injection.

I would definitely recommend exploring Subq injections if you go the daily route. I now do a mix of shallow IM and Subq.

Best injection technique for low dose daily SubQ?

I switched this year from E3.5 injections to low dose daily injections thanks to @Cataceous. I'm currently injecting 8mg each morning of Propionate-only after trying a blend of Cypionate and Prop. Like many on here, I started with harpoon needles from my general physician and than graduated...

www.excelmale.com

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

My experience is that Prop shines on daily basis versus EOD due to the shorter ester. I can typically feel it spike 5-6 hours after injection. Please let us know if you try EOD and how it compares to daily.

Great thing about Prop is that you can adjust dosage quickly. I can feel the change the same day of injection.

I would definitely recommend exploring Subq injections if you go the daily route. I now do a mix of shallow IM and Subq.

Best injection technique for low dose daily SubQ?

I switched this year from E3.5 injections to low dose daily injections thanks to @Cataceous. I'm currently injecting 8mg each morning of Propionate-only after trying a blend of Cypionate and Prop. Like many on here, I started with harpoon needles from my general physician and than graduated...

www.excelmale.com

What's your daily dose? I'm of the opinion, now, that daily(15 mg) might be better. I've had poor results from every protocol using test E; daily, EOD, E3.5 days, weekly, low dose, high dose, topical and pellets. My urologist has been prescribing TRT for 30 years, so now it's time to try test prop. I'm keeping my expectations low.

 

[SSHSSA74]

What's your daily dose? I'm of the opinion, now, that daily(15 mg) might be better. I've had poor results from every protocol using test E; daily, EOD, E3.5 days, weekly, low dose, high dose, topical and pellets. My urologist has been prescribing TRT for 30 years, so now it's time to try test prop. I'm keeping my expectations low.

and what is your shbg?

 

[Willyt]

What's your daily dose? I'm of the opinion, now, that daily(15 mg) might be better. I've had poor results from every protocol using test E; daily, EOD, E3.5 days, weekly, low dose, high dose, topical and pellets. My urologist has been prescribing TRT for 30 years, so now it's time to try test prop. I'm keeping my expectations low.

I have tried daily doses of 6 to 12mg and have settled for the time being on 8.5mg (roughly equivalent to 10mg of Cypionate), which is quite a bit lower than what you are thinking, but more in line with normal physiological levels (at least I think so). Of course, I won't know for sure until I get off my ass and get tested again.

The tricky part with Prop is that the peaks are higher and troughs lower. If I try to bump up to even 12mg for example, I feel like I drank couple of Red Bulls. Everyone is different though so give it a shot.

This is where @Cataceous blended approach is more ideal.

Tips on how to blend propionate with enanthate (or cypionate)?

I have been having some success with low dose daily propionate for the last several months. Dose levels have ranged from 8-10 mg injected every morning after waking. Overall, it has been a far better experience than my previous cypionate protocol of 80-100 per week (split every 3.5 days)...

www.excelmale.com