Anyone tried testosterone base (no ester)?

readalot

Member
But is there something special about doing it three times with the nasal gel? Maybe in the the Natesto product development phase they experimented with different frequencies? Are there any references for the half-life of testosterone in oil? What if it is hours instead of minutes? If so then a single morning injection would somewhat approximate a natural rhythm. Natural men do experience "hypogonadal" testosterone levels at their troughs.
From literature I've seen plotting hourly LH and endogenous testosterone levels over the course of a day, there's quite a distribution in terms of what's classified as "normal". If I had to do it over, may start a career studying the frequency response of the HPG axis. Fascinating guys, thank you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DS3

madman

Member
But is there something special about doing it three times with the nasal gel? Maybe in the Natesto product development phase they experimented with different frequencies? Are there any references for the half-life of testosterone in oil? What if it is hours instead of minutes? If so then a single morning injection would somewhat approximate a natural rhythm. Natural men do experience "hypogonadal" testosterone levels at their troughs.

But is there something special about doing it three times with the nasal gel? Maybe in the Natesto product development phase they experimented with different frequencies?

I think with multiple peaks (2-3x daily) it would more effective and you would reap the overall beneficial effects regarding (energy/mood/libido/erectile function/body composition).

They state that testosterone levels or symptoms are used to guide titration decisions between either twice daily or three times a day doses used to restore testosterone levels to the normal range.

If dosing once daily was truly optimal there would be no need for 2-3 times/day application


*Based on the data, Acerus believes that the mechanism of action of NATESTO® is unique whereby the peaks in testosterone generated by NATESTO® dosing provide efficacy and improvement of symptoms, while the time between doses (4-8 hours) allows for the maintenance of testicular testosterone production and sperm production.

*The 24-hour pharmacokinetic profile of testosterone for patients on TNG treatment has two or three discrete peaks (“pulses”) of testosterone provoked by LH secretions that occur on average every 2 hours. A maximal peak of testosterone appears at about 1h (Tmax) followed by a return to endogenous, pre-dose levels, 4-6 hours later (t1/2 ~1h).

*Natesto, a testosterone-based nasal gel, is self-administered three times per day. Approximately 40 minutes after administration, testosterone levels return to normal, although Natesto’s half-life is widely variable, between 10 and 100 minutes.





Are there any references for the half-life of testosterone in oil? What if it is hours instead of minutes? If so then a single morning injection would somewhat approximate a natural rhythm.

Not that I have come across for an oil-based unesterified T and looking through the studies done using esterified T I find it hard to believe that the carrier oil would have any impact on the delaying the absorption rate to any significant degree.

Let alone the volume of oil-injected using such a low daily dose (100mg/ml strength-based T) would be a measly 10 units/.10 ml

*The pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of androgen esters are therefore primarily determined by ester side-chain length, the volume of oil vehicle, and site of injection via hydrophobic physicochemical partitioning of the androgen ester between the hydrophobic oil vehicle and the aqueous extracellular fluid.

The half-life of unmodified T is 10 min.

Endogenous testosterone secretion is likewise pulsatile and diurnal, with the highest plasma concentrations occurring at about 8 A.M. and the lowest at about 8 P.M.




Natural men do experience "hypogonadal" testosterone levels at their troughs.

Indeed!

Many healthy men, considered to be eugonadal, do have testosterone levels in the hypogonadal range during different times during the day.

The main difference is these men have a healthy functioning hpta let alone are not experiencing any low-t symptoms.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DS3

Stanfoo

Member
Nothing natural about spiking your T levels once daily only to be back to hypogonadal.
Natural men do experience "hypogonadal" testosterone levels at their troughs.

Indeed!

Many healthy men, considered to be eugonadal, do have testosterone levels in the hypogonadal range during different times during the day.
You made a claim but then later contradicted it. I assume you agree it's natural to have fluctuating highs and lows throughout the day.

The main difference is these men have a healthy functioning hpta let alone are not experiencing any low-t symptoms.
So what exactly is your argument here? From that quote, you're saying having lows in the hypogonadol range is normal only in men with normal hpta functions. So you're implying it's NOT OK for someone on trt (who doesn't have normal hpta functions) to have lows in the hypo range? That doesn't make any sense.

The goal of trt is to achieve optimal well being through exogenous T with a protocol that mimics that of a normal males' natural production of T. What is "nothing natural" about a protocol that'd produce a large high and low? (which we've established does occur in normal men).

You're all over the place.
 

madman

Member
You made a claim but then later contradicted it. I assume you agree it's natural to have fluctuating highs and lows throughout the day.



So what exactly is your argument here? From that quote, you're saying having lows in the hypogonadol range is normal only in men with normal hpta functions. So you're implying it's NOT OK for someone on trt (who doesn't have normal hpta functions) to have lows in the hypo range? That doesn't make any sense.

The goal of trt is to achieve optimal well being through exogenous T with a protocol that mimics that of a normal males' natural production of T. What is "nothing natural" about a protocol that'd produce a large high and low? (which we've established does occur in normal men).

You're all over the place.

You missed the point I was trying to get across which is a fault on my part for not being specific enough.

When I stated:

You are in no way mimicking the natural 24hr circadian rhythm of a healthy young male where levels peak in the early am and decline in the late afternoon/early evening.

Eugonadal!

Nothing natural about spiking your T levels once daily only to be back to hypogonadal.

be back to hypogonadal (I meant suffer low-t symptoms).



I should have been more specific when I say eugonadal I mean having a healthy functioning hpta as oppose to a hypogonadal male (dysfunctional hpta).

During the natural 24hr circadian rhythm T levels peak in the early am and decline in the late afternoon/early evening.

During the trough low periods, these same healthy young males are not experiencing any low-t symptoms.

In your case, you have a dysfunctional hpta and suffer from low testosterone.

Most men would seek out trt and yes as I have stated numerous times over the years the goal of trt is to replace physiological levels through the use of exogenous T which results in relief/improvement of low-t symptoms and increased overall well-being while at the same time avoiding/minimizing and potential side-effects and keeping blood markers healthy long-term.

The majority of men would be on a protocol that would result in having healthy TT/FT levels throughout the week by keeping T levels stable and avoiding too low of a trough.

As you very well should know maintaining stable levels and minimizing the peak---> to trough can have a big impact on the overall effectiveness.

A large percentage of men are using intramuscular/subcutaneous injections using various injection protocol (once weekly, twice weekly, M/W/F, EOD, daily) and in no way are mimicking the natural 24hr circadian rhythm of a healthy young male.

Steady-state, many are running levels well into the supra-physiological range 24/7 let alone the hpta is shutdown.

The closest you could get to mimicking the natural 24hr circadian rhythm would be using the T patch or transdermal but again your hpta is still shutdown.

Top it off with the fact that when using exogenous T we are forcing levels upon ourselves that the body would never produce naturally.

Natural endogenous testosterone secretion is pulsatile and diurnal.



The point I was trying to make is that there is nothing natural about spiking your T once daily only to end up back to being hypogonadal as in experiencing low-T symptoms as I feel that your protocol using an oil-based unesterified T injected once daily would not be optimal for relieving/improving low-t symptoms and overall well-being.

Doubtful anyone treating low-t symptoms would feel great overall spiking T levels once daily using an oil-based unesterified T which would most likely result in a short-lived peak only to end back to your very low natty T levels.

So how many hours during a 24hr period would your T levels be optimal?

Again on such protocol injecting an oil-based unesterified T your levels will most likely spike quickly and fall off fast.

As I stated earlier it would be a piss poor protocol to treat low-t symptoms let alone long-term.
 

Willyt

Member
How much mg testosterone base/day do you think would be safe to not cause suppression? I could be the guinea pig and test your theory out. Was planning on running low dose test base daily anyway once I get it.
@Stanfoo - I was thinking along same line and experimented with Natesto once per day prior to workout. Just posted this thread.

As you can see, the results were encouraging, but Natesto’s nasal administration was not the right vehicle for me. I would much prefer injections. For this limited purpose, TNE sounds interesting. Down the rabbit hole I go.
 

Online statistics

Members online
5
Guests online
6
Total visitors
11
Top