TRT to Supraphysiological Levels for Body Building

[LionTamer]

Hi All,

I'm a male, 32, with normal/solid levels of testosterone (650 ng/dl TT). I've been exercising on and off since I was a teenager but have only been on a proper weightlifting and diet protocol for the past 6 months with a professional bodybuilder with my main goal being to obtain a great body. I’ve seen some modest improvements in my physique, however, my genes are just not suited to gain fat free mass commensurately with the effort I put into my diet and exercise routine. To get the same results most people would, I’d have to work out twice as hard and with a perfect diet (weighing food, eliminating refined sugar, managing calories and fat intake to an extreme degree, etc.), essentially indefinitely.

I understand the importance of patience and I'm willing to wait to see results, but the point is that the sacrifice is just too great if it means doing this forever. Eating rice, broccoli, and chicken breast is no way to live, especially because I'm a huge foodie and amateur chef and enjoying unhealthy meals is a principal enjoyment of life for me. Thus, I’m exploring TRT to increase my TT to the 1,100 range ng/dl as a means of giving me the ability to get a great body while maintaining a somewhat normal diet. Of course, I’m no fool and understand that TRT is not a magic cure; I’ll still have to monitor my diet, consume proper amounts of protein, and maintain a consistent exercise routine regardless of any exogenous means of enhancement. But the hope is that TRT will obviously give me a solid edge so that the results are more commensurate with the sacrifices I’m making.

With that in mind, I’m trying to understand whether it is worth the risk to see the results. But most discussions on this forum are centered on older men who want to bring their T levels up to normal ranges (i.e. as a treatment for those who are medically indicated for it) rather than people like me who are pursuing it mainly for aesthetic reasons. So I’m not really sure what the risks are… So the main overarching question is:

Is taking TRT at a relatively young age when my levels are normal and bringing them to supraphysiological levels (1,100-1,200 ng/dl TT) for an extended period of time (many years) risky to my health assuming I am following the monitoring and management targets set by Nelson (hematocrit, blood pressure, etc.) to ensure there are no signs of cardiovascular or other issues? Essentially, what I’m asking is: what are the risks of increasing testosterone to supraphysiological levels over the long term?

[Same question for HCG]
[Same question for HGH, specifically Ipamorelin + CJC-1295]

Most of the studies I’ve seen show that TRT improves nearly all-cause mortality when increased from pathologically low levels up to normal levels, but I haven’t been able to find any data on supraphysiological levels. @madman shared a great post that showed that there are risks to neurological health with supraphysiological doses (Androgen abuse and the brain) but he used the catchall term of ‘androgens’ and the studies he referenced mentioned ‘AAS’, so I wasn’t able to determine if this was limited specifically to TRT or if it included synthetics (i.e. steroid abuse) as well.

By the way, I didn’t mean to bore everyone with a full background on my life story and reasoning; I’m just trying to pre-empt the inevitable responses that are some iteration of “it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”, which is what most doctors would say; that is, that I shouldn’t increase my T levels when they are already in healthy ranges purely for aesthetic reasons. I respectfully disagree. According to that logic, nobody should get nose jobs or breast implants. There’s nothing “wrong” with using modern technology to improve your appearance. It’s just a question of risk and reward, according to each individual’s risk tolerance and goals in life. For example, using anabolic steroids will provide immense improvements, but the pros are outweighed by the cons in this instance. It’s a personal decision, as I’m sure many of you would agree with.

Thank you all so much!

@Nelson Vergel
@Vince

 

[bixt]

The difference between 600ng/dl and 1100ng/dl is going to be tiny if anything, with regards to gains.

You are wasting your time and needlessly shutting down natural production for....nothing.

If you are hellbent on going down this route 100% of BB focussed forums will suggest 500mg / week for 10 weeks. Even then, unless you are a total newbie, the gains may be underwhelming. But I dont think this kind of discussion (steroid cycles) will be entertained on this board, you will have to ask those questions elsewhere.

If you doubt what I said about 1100ng/dl, post your question on T Nation forums and be forewarned.....you plan will be soundly shot down.

Clomid 12.5mg to 25mg ED will probably get you to 1200-1500ng/dl easily and no harm to your HPTA. Thats the safest way to test those levels without harm.

 

[DannyLou2676]

Hi All,

I'm a male, 32, with normal/solid levels of testosterone (650 ng/dl TT). I've been exercising on and off since I was a teenager but have only been on a proper weightlifting and diet protocol for the past 6 months with a professional bodybuilder with my main goal being to obtain a great body. I’ve seen some modest improvements in my physique, however, my genes are just not suited to gain fat free mass commensurately with the effort I put into my diet and exercise routine. To get the same results most people would, I’d have to work out twice as hard and with a perfect diet (weighing food, eliminating refined sugar, managing calories and fat intake to an extreme degree, etc.), essentially indefinitely.

I understand the importance of patience and I'm willing to wait to see results, but the point is that the sacrifice is just too great if it means doing this forever. Eating rice, broccoli, and chicken breast is no way to live, especially because I'm a huge foodie and amateur chef and enjoying unhealthy meals is a principal enjoyment of life for me. Thus, I’m exploring TRT to increase my TT to the 1,100 range ng/dl as a means of giving me the ability to get a great body while maintaining a somewhat normal diet. Of course, I’m no fool and understand that TRT is not a magic cure; I’ll still have to monitor my diet, consume proper amounts of protein, and maintain a consistent exercise routine regardless of any exogenous means of enhancement. But the hope is that TRT will obviously give me a solid edge so that the results are more commensurate with the sacrifices I’m making.

With that in mind, I’m trying to understand whether it is worth the risk to see the results. But most discussions on this forum are centered on older men who want to bring their T levels up to normal ranges (i.e. as a treatment for those who are medically indicated for it) rather than people like me who are pursuing it mainly for aesthetic reasons. So I’m not really sure what the risks are… So the main overarching question is:

Is taking TRT at a relatively young age when my levels are normal and bringing them to supraphysiological levels (1,100-1,200 ng/dl TT) for an extended period of time (many years) risky to my health assuming I am following the monitoring and management targets set by Nelson (hematocrit, blood pressure, etc.) to ensure there are no signs of cardiovascular or other issues? Essentially, what I’m asking is: what are the risks of increasing testosterone to supraphysiological levels over the long term?

[Same question for HCG]
[Same question for HGH, specifically Ipamorelin + CJC-1295]

Most of the studies I’ve seen show that TRT improves nearly all-cause mortality when increased from pathologically low levels up to normal levels, but I haven’t been able to find any data on supraphysiological levels. @madman shared a great post that showed that there are risks to neurological health with supraphysiological doses (Androgen abuse and the brain) but he used the catchall term of ‘androgens’ and the studies he referenced mentioned ‘AAS’, so I wasn’t able to determine if this was limited specifically to TRT or if it included synthetics (i.e. steroid abuse) as well.

By the way, I didn’t mean to bore everyone with a full background on my life story and reasoning; I’m just trying to pre-empt the inevitable responses that are some iteration of “it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”, which is what most doctors would say; that is, that I shouldn’t increase my T levels when they are already in healthy ranges purely for aesthetic reasons. I respectfully disagree. According to that logic, nobody should get nose jobs or breast implants. There’s nothing “wrong” with using modern technology to improve your appearance. It’s just a question of risk and reward, according to each individual’s risk tolerance and goals in life. For example, using anabolic steroids will provide immense improvements, but the pros are outweighed by the cons in this instance. It’s a personal decision, as I’m sure many of you would agree with.

Thank you all so much!

@Nelson Vergel
@Vince

Hi, first off, your questions are totally valid and don't warrant any 'if it aint broke, don't try to fix it replies!' I have been on TRT for 4 years now (aged 48) and qualified for TRT as my levels were in the low range but I had symptoms too - anxiety, low energy, lack of libido and some more. The point is, as far as I'm aware, a doctor will only prescribe TRT if your levels are deemed low AND you have some symptoms of low testosterone. So, is struggling to make gains a symptom of low T? Possibly. Would you benefit if your levels were up to 1100/1200 ng/dl? Possibly. I'd give Sam @ The Mojo Clinic a call. He's been on TRT since before age 30 and they provide a free 20 minute call. Good luck buddy.

 

[Phil Goodman]

Completely valid questions, and I don’t think people should shut down others for simply having discussions. There are lots of people who entertain the thoughts you’re having, and I’d say it’s responsible to try to go in with a risk/reward mindset. There’s a lot to unpack so I’ll just try to keep it condensed for the sake of time. The three main factors that will determine how well your body can bounce back when/if you decide to stop are: doses used, length spent using them, and age when you stop. There really isn’t a way to cheat the system, so the more you get out of it the more damage you’ll do to your body(ie you’ll see better gains on 500/week vs 150/week but also do a lot more damage). I’d also say there are better agents if your main goal is strictly gains in the gym, but they also come with lots of negatives and will be dose dependent. Add to that the fact that everyone is different, and there really is no way to know how it’ll turn out for you. Sure you can do things to make your odds as good as possible, but you won’t really know how things will go. More than likely you could do one or two rounds with little issue, but the problem is that most people won’t stop there. If you have body dysmorphia(and honestly I think most of us do to some extent), then you won’t want to lose what you gain, and in your eyes will probably look bad when in actuality most others could think you look fine. So instead of losing it lots of people decide to jump back on and the vicious cycle continues. And with each round you get older and do more damage to your natural system. I think that’s why so many of those guys end up in a boat where they absolutely have to jump on TRT, because they’ve done too much harm over the years. And you may try to convince yourself that you can just do one or two cycles, but again that is up to the person and probably harder to do than most people realize. For me personally I had chances to do that when you get but always avoided it because I just didn’t think it was worth it. If you want a good resource there is a youtube channel called anabolic doc that covers tons of topics regarding different approaches, managing health, etc.

 

[Jurek Kletsy]

Hi All,

I'm a male, 32, with normal/solid levels of testosterone (650 ng/dl TT). I've been exercising on and off since I was a teenager but have only been on a proper weightlifting and diet protocol for the past 6 months with a professional bodybuilder with my main goal being to obtain a great body. I’ve seen some modest improvements in my physique, however, my genes are just not suited to gain fat free mass commensurately with the effort I put into my diet and exercise routine. To get the same results most people would, I’d have to work out twice as hard and with a perfect diet (weighing food, eliminating refined sugar, managing calories and fat intake to an extreme degree, etc.), essentially indefinitely.

So basically you‘ve only really been putting in the work for only 6 months and now you want to try steroids but only a little dose so that‘s why you’re posting on a trt forum.

I built my physique on a meager t level of 270 while working long hours in a stressful job. It took longer than six months. You don’t have low t levels, so you’ve at least got that going for yourself. just do the research (get of that BS cookie cutter celebrity diet of chicken, broccoli and rice and look into a real, sustainable diet) and the work, the results will follow.

 

[tareload]

Most of the studies I’ve seen show that TRT improves nearly all-cause mortality when increased from pathologically low levels up to normal levels, but I haven’t been able to find any data on supraphysiological levels.

Look harder.

Microdosing Enanthate

Slightly being defined as past the upper quartile but not double the norm. A TT of 1,200 ng/dL would be considered to be slightly supraphyiological. I will take myself as an example of why treating how a patient feels is as important if not more than maintaining physiological testosterone...

www.excelmale.com

I understand the importance of patience and I'm willing to wait to see results, but the point is that the sacrifice is just too great if it means doing this forever. Eating rice, broccoli, and chicken breast is no way to live, especially because I'm a huge foodie and amateur chef and enjoying unhealthy meals is a principal enjoyment of life for me. Thus, I’m exploring TRT to increase my TT to the 1,100 range ng/dl as a means of giving me the ability to get a great body while maintaining a somewhat normal diet. Of course, I’m no fool and understand that TRT is not a magic cure; I’ll still have to monitor my diet, consume proper amounts of protein, and maintain a consistent exercise routine regardless of any exogenous means of enhancement. But the hope is that TRT will obviously give me a solid edge so that the results are more commensurate with the sacrifices I’m making.

Delusional. If your genetics suck and you are unhappy with your physique, how will increasing your trough TT from 650 to 1100 ng/dl improve things? Assuming (big assumption) you are doing everything else correct, you'll add some muscle mass and take on the risks that come with HPTA shutdown and high TT levels.

There's no free lunch in my experience. Options:

(1) find another hobby or adjust your expectations to match reality with your hobby (don't hang out with a professional bodybuilder or expect to look slightly similar unless you understand the risk that comes along)
(2) screw yourself up and take on a bunch of risk with little reward (i.e., be ready to take on the level of risk that comes with your degree of body dysmorphia).

"The grass is always greener" and unfortunately right now you don't know the color of the grass on the side of the fence.

Good luck with your choices.

 

[tareload]

If you doubt what I said about 1100ng/dl, post your question on T Nation forums and be forewarned.....you plan will be soundly shot down.

Good ole T-Nation. Good recommendation, perhaps the OP can ask the forum mod (Chris Colucci) how about safe and effective methods for recreational AAS use. I'm still waiting to learn about them.

 

[tareload]

Most of the studies I’ve seen show that TRT improves nearly all-cause mortality when increased from pathologically low levels up to normal levels, but I haven’t been able to find any data on supraphysiological levels.

Early Left Ventricular Diastolic Dysfunction, Reduced Baroreflex Sensitivity, and Cardiac Autonomic Imbalance in Anabolic-Androgenic Steroid Users - PubMed

The effects of androgen anabolic steroids (AAS) use on athletes' cardiac autonomic activity in terms of baroreflex sensitivity (BRS), and heart rate variability (HRV) have not yet been adequately studied. Furthermore, there is no information to describe the possible relationship between the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Long Term Anabolic-Androgenic Steroid Use is Associated with Left Ventricular Dysfunction

Although illicit anabolic-androgenic steroid (AAS) use is widespread, the cardiac effects of long-term AAS use remain inadequately characterized. We compared cardiac parameters in weightlifters reporting long-term AAS use to those in otherwise similar ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Frontiers | Anabolic Androgenic Steroids Induce Reversible Left Ventricular Hypertrophy and Cardiac Dysfunction. Echocardiography Results of the HAARLEM Study

Background: The use of anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) is not uncommon among strength athletes. Several cross-sectional studies have linked AAS use to hea...

www.frontiersin.org

How the love of muscle can break a heart: Impact of anabolic androgenic steroids on skeletal muscle hypertrophy, metabolic and cardiovascular health - PubMed

It is estimated 6.4% of males and 1.6% of females globally use anabolic-androgenic steroids (AAS), mostly for appearance and performance enhancing reasons. In combination with resistance exercise, AAS use increases muscle protein synthesis resulting in skeletal muscle hypertrophy and increased...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

How bad do you want it and how much do you enjoy a functional cardiovascular system? It's 2022...all of this information is at your fingertips.

Yes, testosterone is an anabolic steroid and don't fall for the BS that testosterone is bioidentical and the other synthetic AAS are the only culprits when it comes to cardiovascular harm.

You have what appears to be a functional HPTGA. Congrats.

 

[DixieWrecked]

Have you read through this forum? Do you really want to open Pandora's box that is hormone replacement? It is a very significant complication to one's life. There are intelligent guys in here that haven't figured it out despite years of effort.

With that said, steady state levels of 1,000 would definitely grow you some muscle compared to a natural 600 or even a natural 1,000. The reason being steady state levels. There are no fluctuations no matter the time of day, how hard one trains, how crappy sleep was, or a horrible diet.

 

[Systemlord]

TRT isn't going to fix bad genes as it relates to the ability to build muscle. The risk to reward ratio or benefit just isn't worth it.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

@LionTamer

You have obviously done your homework.
Because of that fact, the answer I will be giving you is different than what I would tell others.

It is OK to do a higher dose testosterone cycle for muscle gain and fat loss. If I was you, the only concern would be how long it would take for me to reach my baseline T level after stopping the cycle. Some guys never go back to that baseline but most do within 6-12 months. Some may try a PCT with hCG and Clomid to accelerate that recovery. But we have very limited data on PCT-assisted HPTA recovery.

Getting Off Testosterone or Anabolics? You May Want to Read this HPTA protocol

Some men need to stop using testosterone or other androgens because side effects are a problem (e.g. low sperm count interferes with their goal to have children). Most physicians advise the patient to just stop testosterone without thinking about the possible consequences of the hypogonadal...

www.excelmale.com

We know that doses over 125 mg of T are anabolic:

Responses of different doses of testosterone injections on body composition, strength, etc.

The question is "How high do I go and how long do I stay on that dose?". Most would tell you that 300 mg per week for 16 weeks may get you to some substantial gains. Of course, you have already read my article about what lab test target values to monitor and how to manage them.

I know we have a rule on ExcelMale not to talk about this topic, but I am making an exemption since you seem to have done a lot of reading and that your question is a valid one even if we were to choose not to entertain it.

Some like conservative cycles of 200 mg testosterone plus 100 mg nandrolone. But, as you have seen in the link above, T by itself can get you there also.

You can dig deeper here:

Clinical Use of Anabolics and Hormones

You may want to download my free book since I have a section on HPTA recovery there:

Free 386-Page Testosterone Book

 

[LionTamer]

Thank you everyone so very much for your responses! I really appreciate all of your help.

I'm planning to respond to some of the comments and concerns raised and have more questions but want to spend some time doing more research to make an informed reply.

In the meantime, if there are any recommendations for further reading (as some of you pointed out, I'm still new to all of this science), I'd welcome any suggestions. Specifically, what are some other great forums that address some of these topics that I've brought up more directly?

Thanks again!

 

[bixt]

So, is struggling to make gains a symptom of low T? Possibly. Would you benefit if your levels were up to 1100/1200 ng/dl? Possibly.

Absolutely not. There are tons of skinny people, healthy and horny in every way, who just cannot put on weight easily. In their case, not being able to put on 20kg of muscle is NOT a symptom of "low T", for them. They must not be encouraged to visit T mills to obtain a script.

Trust me when I say I speak from experiance. I and my friends have done our fair share of stupid shit. I have tons of friends and cousins in their late teens and early 20s. We (myself included) have tried all these "low dose cycles" i.e. 200mg cyp. As far as gains went - NONE to report. Bear in mind all of us weighed around 50kg before lifting and ended up close to 60kg on average after training for a while naturally and eating big. 200mg did nothing to tilt the scale further, other than a kg or two of water which was lost at the end. It was only after doing 500mg+ cycles incl orals such as dbol were some further gains had. I must add - these were not easy gains either! Neither were they big gains. You have to eat like a literal pig, to the point of throwing up.

Most recent example - close buddy aged 19, natural weight 50.05kg (weighed on 3 seperate days alone joining the gym. Total noob. Got to 58kg in 6 months naturally. Against my advice he is currently running 500mg test / 600mg deca, for the past 22 weeks!!! Weight now? 64kg.... While his strengh has shot up dramatically and spectacularly, and his physique has improved, but not to the degree you would expect on such doses!

Moral of the story, be prepared to stuff your mouth with food, train balls to the wall, and most importantly you need TIME. No amount of steroids can shortcut the need to eat huge and train hard, for a hardgainer. It takes years of multiple cycles for the transformation you seek, and be prepared to stay on 200mg to keep those gains when not cycling. Cycle gains are not called the "rented look" for no reason.

 

[DannyLou2676]

Absolutely not. There are tons of skinny people, healthy and horny in every way, who just cannot put on weight easily. In their case, not being able to put on 20kg of muscle is NOT a symptom of "low T", for them. They must not be encouraged to visit T mills to obtain a script.

Trust me when I say I speak from experiance. I and my friends have done our fair share of stupid shit. I have tons of friends and cousins in their late teens and early 20s. We (myself included) have tried all these "low dose cycles" i.e. 200mg cyp. As far as gains went - NONE to report. Bear in mind all of us weighed around 50kg before lifting and ended up close to 60kg on average after training for a while naturally and eating big. 200mg did nothing to tilt the scale further, other than a kg or two of water which was lost at the end. It was only after doing 500mg+ cycles incl orals such as dbol were some further gains had. I must add - these were not easy gains either! Neither were they big gains. You have to eat like a literal pig, to the point of throwing up.

Most recent example - close buddy aged 19, natural weight 50.05kg (weighed on 3 seperate days alone joining the gym. Total noob. Got to 58kg in 6 months naturally. Against my advice he is currently running 500mg test / 600mg deca, for the past 22 weeks!!! Weight now? 64kg.... While his strengh has shot up dramatically and spectacularly, and his physique has improved, but not to the degree you would expect on such doses!

Moral of the story, be prepared to stuff your mouth with food, train balls to the wall, and most importantly you need TIME. No amount of steroids can shortcut the need to eat huge and train hard, for a hardgainer. It takes years of multiple cycles for the transformation you seek, and be prepared to stay on 200mg to keep those gains when not cycling. Cycle gains are not called the "rented look" for no reason.

Read again fella, I said 'possibly', everyone is different, I know of many people who have gained from going on a 'low' dose or TRT cycle. Yes, everything else has to be in place, food, hard training and of course it takes times. Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it isn't possible. Note, I didn't say 'definitely'.

 

[tareload]

In the meantime, if there are any recommendations for further reading (as some of you pointed out, I'm still new to all of this science), I'd welcome any suggestions. Specifically, what are some other great forums that address some of these topics that I've brought up more directly?

I gave you quite a few pieces to read.

Let me know when you've had enough.

https://associationofanaesthetists-publications.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1365-2044.2005.04218.x

From the article:

Adverse effects of anabolic steroids​

The most common reported side-effects were increased libido (61%), changes in mood (48%), reduced testicular volume (46%), and acne (43%). Gynaecomastia and abnormal liver function tests was also a common finding. Despite these effects, only 19% reported that they would not use anabolic steroids in the future [23]. Women athletes tolerate the side-effects of anabolic steroids such as facial hair, aggressiveness, deepening of the voice, and clitoral enlargement [24].

Cardiovascular adverse effects​

Adverse cardiovascular effects induced by anabolic steroids include hypertension, left ventricular hypertrophy, impaired diastolic filling, polycythaemia, and thrombosis. Although the incidence of anabolic steroid induced adverse cardiovascular effects is unknown, anaesthetists and surgeons should be aware of the increased peri-operative risks in anabolic steroid abusers who are undergoing elective surgery.


There are several case reports of sudden death associated with exercise among anabolic steroid abusers [25-30]. Weight training and exercise induce ventricular hypertrophy. Some studies suggested that myocardial hypertrophy was more extensive in athletes who used anabolic steroids in addition to exercise [31, 32]. However, a case series study reported that the echocardiographic measurements of left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH) in weight lifters who used anabolic steroids were not different from those did not use them [33]. Ventricular hypertrophy causes impaired isovolumetric relaxation, diastolic dysfunction and fractional shortening [30].


Focal areas of myocardial fibrosis are commonly found at autopsy among anabolic steroid users [26, 27, 30, 34]. It is suggested that focal myocardial fibrosis is caused by rapid myocardial fibre growth outstripping its blood supply, resulting in piecemeal necrosis and subsequent fibrosis [27]. A direct cellular toxic mechanism mediated by disturbances of ion fluxes, and loss of membrane integrity (leading to cell death and fibrosis) has been suggested [14, 35]. These changes are irreversible. The fibrotic areas can potentially act as a focus for a malignant arrhythmia, or if extensive, cause cardiomyopathy.


Animal studies have shown that anabolic agents enhance the pressor response to catecholamines, mediated by inhibition of extraneuronal uptake of neuroamines, and increased vascular response to norepinephrine [36]. These changes may contribute to malignant arrhythmias and cause sudden death during periods of exertion.


Excellent article. Note that blood work on its own may not give the full picture.

 

[jkp062814]

We know that doses over 125 mg of T are anabolic:

Responses of different doses of testosterone injections on body composition, strength, etc.

I just recently started "true" TRT (had been on very low-dose Clomid prescribed by my Endocrinologist for a few years to maintain fertility, but began Test Cyp. injections just last month since my wife and I are done having kids).

I've always been able to maintain a fairly lean, muscular, athletic build (5'10" 175lbs - 33yo), even with very low T and Free T levels. I exercised regularly during those years and maintained a good diet, but my strength had noticeably declined along with increasing joint pain and less mobility. Of course also dealt with all of the other low T symptoms such as decreased libido, brain fog, fatigue, etc.

You noted that doses over 125mg/wk are anabolic. This is not to say that somewhat lower doses couldn't result in improved body composition and strength gains, especially for those who had low T to begin with, correct? In my head, and again as a "newbie", I want to think that while I was able to maintain a relatively good physique while having low T but noticing less strength and poor mobility with added joint pain, that my body would welcome exogenous T with open arms after a stabilization period, wondering where this T has been all of these years and use it to possibly regain some of that strength I had lost.

While my Dr had started me on just 50mg weekly injections last month, as he likes to start low and increase until finding the sweet spot, he just increased my dosage to 100mg weekly, which I'm splitting into two injections every 3.5 days. While everyone is different, could I still reasonably expect to see some increased strength and improved composition on just 100mg/wk? I just began this regimen this week, and understand there will be a stabilization period of 4-6 weeks where I may see some improvements, and likely several more weeks/months before seeing body composition and/or strength changes.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

@LionTamer download and read my first book

Built to Survive - PoWeR USA​

 

[DS3]

@LionTamer

You have obviously done your homework.
Because of that fact, the answer I will be giving you is different than what I would tell others.

It is OK to do a higher dose testosterone cycle for muscle gain and fat loss. If I was you, the only concern would be how long it would take for me to reach my baseline T level after stopping the cycle. Some guys never go back to that baseline but most do within 6-12 months. Some may try a PCT with hCG and Clomid to accelerate that recovery. But we have very limited data on PCT-assisted HPTA recovery.

Getting Off Testosterone or Anabolics? You May Want to Read this HPTA protocol

Some men need to stop using testosterone or other androgens because side effects are a problem (e.g. low sperm count interferes with their goal to have children). Most physicians advise the patient to just stop testosterone without thinking about the possible consequences of the hypogonadal...

www.excelmale.com

We know that doses over 125 mg of T are anabolic:

Responses of different doses of testosterone injections on body composition, strength, etc.

The question is "How high do I go and how long do I stay on that dose?". Most would tell you that 300 mg per week for 16 weeks may get you to some substantial gains. Of course, you have already read my article about what lab test target values to monitor and how to manage them.

I know we have a rule on ExcelMale not to talk about this topic, but I am making an exemption since you seem to have done a lot of reading and that your question is a valid one even if we were to choose not to entertain it.

Some like conservative cycles of 200 mg testosterone plus 100 mg nandrolone. But, as you have seen in the link above, T by itself can get you there also.

You can dig deeper here:

Clinical Use of Anabolics and Hormones

You may want to download my free book since I have a section on HPTA recovery there:

Free 386-Page Testosterone Book

Leave it to @Nelson Vergel to be the only one to not bash @LionTamer. I freaking love it. I’m glad we have atleast one person on this forum that isn’t jaded about exogenous testosterone.

 

[DS3]

I gave you quite a few pieces to read.

Let me know when you've had enough.

https://associationofanaesthetists-publications.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1365-2044.2005.04218.x

From the article:

Adverse effects of anabolic steroids​

The most common reported side-effects were increased libido (61%), changes in mood (48%), reduced testicular volume (46%), and acne (43%). Gynaecomastia and abnormal liver function tests was also a common finding. Despite these effects, only 19% reported that they would not use anabolic steroids in the future [23]. Women athletes tolerate the side-effects of anabolic steroids such as facial hair, aggressiveness, deepening of the voice, and clitoral enlargement [24].

Cardiovascular adverse effects​

Adverse cardiovascular effects induced by anabolic steroids include hypertension, left ventricular hypertrophy, impaired diastolic filling, polycythaemia, and thrombosis. Although the incidence of anabolic steroid induced adverse cardiovascular effects is unknown, anaesthetists and surgeons should be aware of the increased peri-operative risks in anabolic steroid abusers who are undergoing elective surgery.


There are several case reports of sudden death associated with exercise among anabolic steroid abusers [25-30]. Weight training and exercise induce ventricular hypertrophy. Some studies suggested that myocardial hypertrophy was more extensive in athletes who used anabolic steroids in addition to exercise [31, 32]. However, a case series study reported that the echocardiographic measurements of left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH) in weight lifters who used anabolic steroids were not different from those did not use them [33]. Ventricular hypertrophy causes impaired isovolumetric relaxation, diastolic dysfunction and fractional shortening [30].


Focal areas of myocardial fibrosis are commonly found at autopsy among anabolic steroid users [26, 27, 30, 34]. It is suggested that focal myocardial fibrosis is caused by rapid myocardial fibre growth outstripping its blood supply, resulting in piecemeal necrosis and subsequent fibrosis [27]. A direct cellular toxic mechanism mediated by disturbances of ion fluxes, and loss of membrane integrity (leading to cell death and fibrosis) has been suggested [14, 35]. These changes are irreversible. The fibrotic areas can potentially act as a focus for a malignant arrhythmia, or if extensive, cause cardiomyopathy.


Animal studies have shown that anabolic agents enhance the pressor response to catecholamines, mediated by inhibition of extraneuronal uptake of neuroamines, and increased vascular response to norepinephrine [36]. These changes may contribute to malignant arrhythmias and cause sudden death during periods of exertion.


Excellent article. Note that blood work on its own may not give the full picture.

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Why are you so jaded about exogenous testosterone? Do you not respond well to it?

 

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Why are you so jaded about exogenous testosterone? Do you not respond well to it?

Your first question doesn't follow from the information above. Perhaps you could rephrase as "Why are you so jaded about abuse of exogenous testosterone to raise T levels to above physiologic range in a subject with fully functional HPTA?" or something like that. Then yeah, I'd agree I'm jaded about doing that expecting a free ride.

On your second question if "it" refers to the revised "it" in the last paragraph, then then answer is No.

I'd like to think I have moved off the Peak of "Mt Stupid":

Positive and Negative Effects of Steroid Use

The abstract is so clear that it's worth quoting the whole thing: An estimated 4‐6% of fitness center visitors uses anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS). Reliable data about adverse reactions of AAS are scarce. The HAARLEM study aimed to provide insight into the positive and negative effects of...

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But hey, everybody has to learn what works for them.