Why do we aim for such high troughs?

OneJoe · Dec 4, 2019

My understanding of testosterone levels from cypionate has me wondering, why do we aim for such high troughs? If we are injecting every 3.5 days and testing trough at 700, our peaks are likely 1000+ which is borderline supraphysiological. Wouldn't aiming for 1000 or more on a trough be supraphysiological most of the time? Theoretically, shouldn't most guys be totally fine if they're staying between 700 and 1000 all week as long as shbg wasn't crazy high?

Vince Carter · Dec 4, 2019

I've been saying that at least with Estrogen that that's probably better managed from a peak value, than a trough. As a trough value that's just the low point, E follows T and even with small daily injections there's a peak and a trough.
I've seen my Free Estrogen double to over the lab range at 12hrs post injection.

OneJoe · Dec 4, 2019

Vince Carter said:
I've been saying that at least with Estrogen that that's probably better managed from a peak value, than a trough. As a trough value that's just the low point, E follows T and even with small daily injections there's a peak and a trough.
I've seen my Free Estrogen double to over the lab range at 12hrs post injection.

I agree with the logic of course. It can explain why some guys have e2 numbers that look fine at trough but still might experience symptoms.

slicktop · Dec 4, 2019

My guess, to your original question: with long ester testosterone, that peak lasts for a very short time, but the trough rides it out longer. But, this is yet one more reason I pay less attention to total T and more attention to free T. The effect we get from total T is so dependant on rT3, T4, SHBG, etc, that it's just a less effective marker to look at IMHO.

Rain27 · Dec 4, 2019

La estrategia entonces seria controlar el eetrogeno antes de que suba , sabemos que en el canal la mayoria esta en rangos normales pero y los picos?

Systemlord · Dec 4, 2019

I can speak for myself, but when there is as moderate difference between peak and trough, this alone produces symptoms. When I was on 50mg twice weekly, my trough levels was 697, not low by our standards yet TRT had a very low effectiveness.

When I started daily injections for the first time I experienced all the benefits of TRT at only 417 ng/dL. By doing daily injections, my hormone levels are virtually static with minimal difference between peak and trough.

Rain27 · Dec 4, 2019

Has retomado trt?

OneJoe · Dec 4, 2019

Systemlord said:
I can speak for myself, but when there is as moderate difference between peak and trough, this alone produces symptoms. When I was on 50mg twice weekly, my trough levels was 697, not low by our standards yet TRT had a very low effectiveness.

When I started daily injections for the first time I experienced all the benefits of TRT at only 417 ng/dL. By doing daily injections, my hormone levels are virtually static with minimal difference between peak and trough.

You are low shbg though I am guessing? I would think for guys with average shbg a level somewhat stable from 700-100 should be fine?

Systemlord · Dec 4, 2019

OneJoe said:
You are low shbg though I am guessing?

Correct, lower SHBG pre-TRT and an increase SHBG on TRT.

Larry P · Dec 4, 2019

I have high total T at the trough (841), but using the dialysis method my free T is only one percent (84) My E2 is a little above midrange, but my doctor thinks only about total T and never discusses free T. I told him I am more interested in free T, since total T is doing nothing for me. I do injections every five days and only do 40mg. Some people are very sensitive to using TRT. I am trying to get my free T up, but I cannot think of anyway to do it unless I increase the dose or do injections with a lower dose but say every three days.

OneJoe · Dec 4, 2019

Larry P said:
I have high total T at the trough (841), but using the dialysis method my free T is only one percent (84) My E2 is a little above midrange, but my doctor thinks only about total T and never discusses free T. I told him I am more interested in free T, since total T is doing nothing for me. I do injections every five days and only do 40mg. Some people are very sensitive to using TRT. I am trying to get my free T up, but I cannot think of anyway to do it unless I increase the dose or do injections with a lower dose but say every three days.

How do you feel though? Have you ever seen the Tru T Calculator? It's supposed to be much more accurate.

Larry P · Dec 4, 2019

I know the current most accurate calculator to use is the Tru T and I did use it. The Tru T calculated my free T at just over 3%. I have read that the Equilibrium Dialysis method is also suppose to be the most accurate. Using the Dialysis it shows 1% of free T. That is such a huge difference that I have no idea what my true free T really is. I just go by how I feel. No body feels like superman 100% of the time. We all have our strong days and weak days. I just do not want to have a problem with side effects. I am still dialing in my dose and playing with the whole TRT program.

slicktop · Dec 5, 2019

Larry P said:
I am trying to get my free T up, but I cannot think of anyway to do it unless I increase the dose or do injections with a lower dose but say every three days.

That's your answer. More frequency. If you're doing sub-q, needles are like 15 cents each. It's the cheapest experiment you can try, with almost no likelihood of problems. If you were a Defy patient, I'd bet money they'd tell you 841 at the trough isn't high enough to be concerned with. I run at ~1060 and feel awesome, and they had no concerns of my total T being at that level. I can't recommend small, more frequent shots enough- it's been a huge difference for me.

OneJoe · Dec 5, 2019

slicktop said:
My guess, to your original question: with long ester testosterone, that peak lasts for a very short time, but the trough rides it out longer. But, this is yet one more reason I pay less attention to total T and more attention to free T. The effect we get from total T is so dependant on rT3, T4, SHBG, etc, that it's just a less effective marker to look at IMHO.

It seems like cypionate pharmacokinetics would show that it lasts for several days though
https://anabolic.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/testcyp.jpg

slicktop · Dec 5, 2019

OneJoe said:
It seems like cypionate pharmacokinetics would show that it lasts for several days though
https://anabolic.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/testcyp.jpg

There's no doubt that it does, and that chart is a perfect example of my theory. Look at how it holds fairly even for days 1-3, then drops from 3-4 then 4-5. At day 7 it's less than half of day one. But just look at that spike and the drop from day 1 to 5! That's a lot! Then the trough is almost flat from like 11-25. In percentages, that's a indicates a relatively short peak and long trough. This is a kinda bad example, but imagine you're driving a car with a rear main seal leak and you can't afford to fix it until you get your bonus check- it's leaking oil at a rate of 3 quarts per 7 days. Would it be better on the engine to put in three quarts once a week, or top it off daily? Just my opinion, of course! We each have to dial our own TRT in to fit our own unique engines!

OneJoe · Dec 5, 2019

slicktop said:
There's no doubt that it does, and that chart is a perfect example of my theory. Look at how it holds fairly even for days 1-3, then drops from 3-4 then 4-5. At day 7 it's less than half of day one. But just look at that spike and the drop from day 1 to 5! That's a lot! Then the trough is almost flat from like 11-25. In percentages, that's a indicates a relatively short peak and long trough. This is a kinda bad example, but imagine you're driving a car with a rear main seal leak and you can't afford to fix it until you get your bonus check- it's leaking oil at a rate of 3 quarts per 7 days. Would it be better on the engine to put in three quarts once a week, or top it off daily? Just my opinion, of course! We each have to dial our own TRT in to fit our own unique engines!

Oh ok I got it, I misunderstood what you meant in your last post. The analogy makes a lot of sense. I like the idea of daily injections too, although less frequent is definitely easier. I was just wondering if it would be overkill compared to every 3.5 days if low shbg wasn't an issue.

Deleted member 16042 · Dec 5, 2019

I have high SHBG and tried Q3D, QOD and QD. To me there seems to be value in running more level-to a point.

With Q3D I was experiencing a 3 day cycle of bloat and moodiness, so first try at managing E2 was to go to QOD and lower total weekly amount of T cyp. It worked pretty darn well but I still had a small amount of E2 sides.

Then I tried QD and also reduced weekly total accordingly . I am not sure why, but the QOD schedule was more comfortable. QD I had constant bloat. I may have just had to lower dose a bit more, but QOD gave me slight fluctuation in E2 sides rather than constant. I then tried lowering dose further, but hit what seems the bottom of effective free T. So added tiny amount anastrozole.

I figure based on the curve referenced above that I have pretty darn small peaks/troughs, and run pretty level. TT is usually around 1000 (~900-1200), Free T direct around 20 (~18-23), Tru T 30, and E2 kept in high 20s (~25-35). Lower free T and I am feeling Low T symptoms, and feel better with E2 below 30.

Doesn't mean this will work for you. N=1

OneJoe · Dec 5, 2019

Blackhawk said:
I have high SHBG and tried Q3D, QOD and QD. To me there seems to be value in running more level-to a point.

With Q3D I was experiencing a 3 day cycle of bloat and moodiness, so first try at managing E2 was to go to QOD and lower total weekly amount of T cyp. It worked pretty darn well but I still had a small amount of E2 sides.

Then I tried QD and also reduced weekly total accordingly . I am not sure why, but the QOD schedule was more comfortable. QD I had constant bloat. I may have just had to lower dose a bit more, but QOD gave me slight fluctuation in E2 sides rather than constant. I then tried lowering dose further, but hit what seems the bottom of effective free T. So added tiny amount anastrozole.

I figure based on the curve referenced above that I have pretty darn small peaks/troughs, and run pretty level. TT is usually around 1000 (~900-1200), Free T direct around 20 (~18-23), Tru T 30, and E2 kept in high 20s (~25-35). Lower free T and I am feeling Low T symptoms, and feel better with E2 below 30.

Doesn't mean this will work for you. N=1

Thx I appreciate the level of detail in this post. What dose were you running for QD and QOD?

Also, I have mid-range SHBG (35) but my albumin seems to run high (4.9 on my last test). From my reading I see that albumin is weak and doesn't make as big of a difference as SHBG?

slicktop · Dec 5, 2019

Blackhawk said:
I have high SHBG and tried Q3D, QOD and QD. To me there seems to be value in running more level-to a point.

With Q3D I was experiencing a 3 day cycle of bloat and moodiness, so first try at managing E2 was to go to QOD and lower total weekly amount of T cyp. It worked pretty darn well but I still had a small amount of E2 sides.

Then I tried QD and also reduced weekly total accordingly . I am not sure why, but the QOD schedule was more comfortable. QD I had constant bloat. I may have just had to lower dose a bit more, but QOD gave me slight fluctuation in E2 sides rather than constant. I then tried lowering dose further, but hit what seems the bottom of effective free T. So added tiny amount anastrozole.

I figure based on the curve referenced above that I have pretty darn small peaks/troughs, and run pretty level. TT is usually around 1000 (~900-1200), Free T direct around 20 (~18-23), Tru T 30, and E2 kept in high 20s (~25-35). Lower free T and I am feeling Low T symptoms, and feel better with E2 below 30.

Doesn't mean this will work for you. N=1

Dude. I didn't know there were two of us. Only difference is I feel better with my E2 below 25. I live in Houston, I don't need ANYTHING else making me feel hot!

Deleted member 16042 · Dec 5, 2019

OneJoe said:
Thx I appreciate the level of detail in this post. What dose were you running for QD and QOD?

Also, I have mid-range SHBG (35) but my albumin seems to run high (4.9 on my last test). From my reading I see that albumin is weak and doesn't make as big of a difference as SHBG?

I don't think my dose is relevant. We are different individuals. But my current protocol that I keep coming back to after every other try:

SHBG averages about 50.

T cyp 24mg QOD
HCG 200 iu QOD
Anastrozole 0.07mg QOD
DHEA 15mg QD
Pregnenelone 25mg QD
NDT 45-75mg QD depends on physical activity. This is currently on the low end due to having Leukemia, associated anemia and reduced physical activity..