What are the side effects of high testosterone?

[jobshopper]

What are the side effects of high testosterone?
If a person has a TT higher than the normal range but has no side effects is that a bad thing?
If so, why?

 

[madman]

What are the side effects of high testosterone?
If a person has a TT higher than the normal range but has no side effects is that a bad thing?
If so, why?

What are the side effects of high testosterone?

Excess FT levels can result in acne/oily skin (genetically prone), accelerated balding (genetically prone), drive down HDL, increased RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit (common), overstimulation of the CNS (common), bloating/water retention due to androgens effects on the retention of electrolytes (common).

Some of the side effects are driven by testosterone metabolites estradiol/DHT.


If a person has a TT higher than the normal range but has no side effects is that a bad thing?

No.

Although symptom relief is what truly matters lab work is critical as not only do we want to see where said protocol (dose T/injection frequency) has ones TT/FT level let alone other hormones but also to keep an eye on the impact it has on overall blood markers as we are not only trying to relieve/improve symptoms of low-t but also to minimize/avoid any potential negative effects on overall health especially long-term.

Regarding reference ranges, they are not set in stone and should be used as a guideline to give us an idea of where hormones/blood markers sit as levels could very well be too high or low resulting in negative effects.

There is nothing wrong with one running TT/FT level above range as long as you feel well overall and blood markers are healthy.

No one is saying you have to keep your levels in a set range as the goal is to achieve the beneficial effects of having healthy FT levels while making sure overall health is maintained long term.


*The goal of trt is to replace physiological levels of testosterone through the use of exogenous testosterone in order to achieve a healthy TT/FT level which will result in the relief/improvement of low-t symptoms while at the same time minimizing/avoiding any potential side effects (cosmetic/overall health) while keeping blood markers healthy long-term

 

[Cataceous]

...
If a person has a TT higher than the normal range but has no side effects is that a bad thing?
If so, why?

I don't think we know enough to answer this. It may be benign or it may reduce your lifespan.

 

[jobshopper]

Thank you for your replies. I am 68 years old and feel great. Lab numbers are all good and within range but my TT is slightly over the high end of the range. My doctor says that he thinks I'm at the top of my class health wise for my age. He does express concern about my TT getting too high because of side effects but when I quizzed him on what the negative side effects would be he didn't really answer my question. I have labs done every 3 months just before I go in to see him. Thanks again for the input.

 

[UCFguy01]

Thank you for your replies. I am 68 years old and feel great. Lab numbers are all good and within range but my TT is slightly over the high end of the range. My doctor says that he thinks I'm at the top of my class health wise for my age. He does express concern about my TT getting too high because of side effects but when I quizzed him on what the negative side effects would be he didn't really answer my question. I have labs done every 3 months just before I go in to see him. Thanks again for the input.

As long as your Blood pressure, Hematocrit/hemoglobin are OK and you aren't feeling any high estrogen symptoms, you're probably just fine. If you feel good that is a good sign that you're OK as well.

 

[jobshopper]

As long as your Blood pressure, Hematocrit/hemoglobin are OK and you aren't feeling any high estrogen symptoms, you're probably just fine. If you feel good that is a good sign that you're OK as well.

Yep. Numbers are all good. At one time I was having a problem with RBC and Hct being a little high but after being on my protocol for several months the numbers have come back down. I also take a baby aspirin every day on the advice of my doctor to help keep those number down.

My only complaint is that I have injured both of my deltoids from lifting. I quit lifting completely now waiting for them to heal but the recovery is slow.

Thanks for your input.

 

[tareload]

I don't think we know enough to answer this. It may be benign or it may reduce your lifespan.

To expand on this, blood work doesn't capture a complete picture. If you choose to run supra you may want to consider regular echocardiograms to monitor the status of your most important muscle. Individual dependent but a concern would be fibrosis of the heart muscle leading to diastolic dysfunction (especially when you combine high TT levels with high Hct + autoimmune issues and hard weight training). My experience may be the outlier and I hope it is. Tread carefully if you aware of pre-existing condition and get a baseline.

I was feeling great until I wasn't. High TT integrated over time may be fine for one and ??? for another.

protect your heart as without it you really have nothing.

 

[Systemlord]

He does express concern about my TT getting too high because of side effects but when I quizzed him on what the negative side effects would be he didn't really answer my question.

It all comes down to risk. As of right now your doctor can't answer your question which is why he's concerned.

 

[Jurek Kletsy]

To expand on this, blood work doesn't capture a complete picture. If you choose to run supra you may want to consider regular echocardiograms to monitor the status of your most important muscle. Individual dependent but a concern would be fibrosis of the heart muscle leading to diastolic dysfunction (especially when you combine high TT levels with high Hct + autoimmune issues and hard weight training). My experience may be the outlier and I hope it is. Tread carefully if you aware of pre-existing condition and get a baseline.

I was feeling great until I wasn't. High TT integrated over time may be fine for one and ??? for another.

protect your heart as without it you really have nothing.

Is this just based on your own story or are there any studies which point to problems going above range? How much above range?

I understand that you've had issues running supra levels. What was your level of TT? Any history of steroid use?

 

[jobshopper]

My current protocol is 80mg E3-1/2D shallow IM.

I have been on this protocol for 18 months. When I started this protocol I was on medication for high blood pressure... no longer on any blood pressure medication. I had high cholesterol when I started... cholesterol numbers are all good now. Some of my other blood tests were also out of range but not any longer. The only number that is a little high is my Glucose at 108, but it continues to drop a couple of points every time I test. Even my PSA has come down over the past year. A year ago it was 4.0 and last month it was down to 2.95.
Thoughts?

 

[tareload]

Is this just based on your own story or are there any studies which point to problems going above range? How much above range?

I understand that you've had issues running supra levels. What was your level of TT? Any history of steroid use?

I've got a meager 284 posts on here and a few more over at T-Nation. Check em out when you have time if you are interested. To your point, it's not my experience that's important to you, it's your experience.

Good questions.

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Read it. Then you’ll at least have some idea where that potential diastolic dysfunction / hypertrophy came from and whether it’s physiologic CH (athlete’s heart - hard cardio) or pathologic (e.g., fibrosis related - AAS). Light or Hard cardio ain’t going to ameliorate AAS-induced interstitial...

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[madman]

Yep. Numbers are all good. At one time I was having a problem with RBC and Hct being a little high but after being on my protocol for several months the numbers have come back down. I also take a baby aspirin every day on the advice of my doctor to help keep those number down.

My only complaint is that I have injured both of my deltoids from lifting. I quit lifting completely now waiting for them to heal but the recovery is slow.

Thanks for your input.

TRT Accelerates Artery Plaque Buildup

I read this article today that is concerning. https://www.cardiosmart.org/news/2017/3/testosterone-treatment-accelerates-artery-plaque-buildup

www.excelmale.com

 

[madman]

Yep. Numbers are all good. At one time I was having a problem with RBC and Hct being a little high but after being on my protocol for several months the numbers have come back down. I also take a baby aspirin every day on the advice of my doctor to help keep those number down.

My only complaint is that I have injured both of my deltoids from lifting. I quit lifting completely now waiting for them to heal but the recovery is slow.

Thanks for your input.

If there was a tear to the muscle tissue then healing time should not be too long.

At your age, I would be more suspect of tendon tear/degenerative tendons which can take much longer to heal let alone in many cases surgery may be needed.

Aging has a negative impact on tendon health as they tend to become stiffer/reduced regenerative capacity/loss of stem cell function.

*Aged tendons exhibited structural, compositional, and biomechanical changes

Regarding tendonitis in most cases when one has been lifting weight for a long time (years) most in fact develop tendinosis as opposed to tendinitis (which they think they have) and when one develops tendinosis the tendons are much more prone to a tear as tendinosis is a degeneration of the tendons collagen from chronic overuse.

Tendinosis (degeneration) from wear/tear, aging.

As we age one needs to train smarter as you will notice it is very common for most who have weight trained for years to end up with damaged joints/tendons from the repetitive wear/tear on the body.

 

[jobshopper]

If there was a tear to the muscle tissue then healing time should not be too long.

At your age, I would be more suspect of tendon tear/degenerative tendons which can take much longer to heal let alone in many cases surgery may be needed.

Aging has a negative impact on tendon health as they tend to become stiffer/reduced regenerative capacity/loss of stem cell function.

*Aged tendons exhibited structural, compositional, and biomechanical changes

Regarding tendonitis in most cases when one has been lifting weight for a long time (years) most in fact develop tendinosis as opposed to tendinitis (which they think they have) and when one develops tendinosis the tendons are much more prone to a tear as tendinosis is a degeneration of the tendons collagen from chronic overuse.

Tendinosis (degeneration) from wear/tear, aging.

As we age one needs to train smarter as you will notice it is very common for most who have weight trained for years to end up with damaged joints/tendons from the repetitive wear/tear on the body.

Thank you for your input on this. I started taking 6g of collagen every day several months ago. I am slowly getting better and the collagen seems to be helping. I am hoping that in a couple of more months I will be able to start lifting again. Interestingly enough the pain is often worse at night while I sleeping than it is during the day when I am active. But, it is slowing getting better. I also find that KT tape helps a lot.

 

[Dicky]

I've got a meager 284 posts on here and a few more over at T-Nation. Check em out when you have time if you are interested. To your point, it's not my experience that's important to you, it's your experience.

Good questions.

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Do I understand this correctly, you were diagnosed with grade 1 diastolic dysfunction? And this was discovered by an echocardiogram? Can you tell me what kind of total T and free T levels you were running and for how long?

 

[tareload]

Yes.
Yes.
Almost 4 years on TRT. Typically 80-120 mg/week of TC (on and off hCG). Played with 1x and 2x per week injections.

Total T between 1500 and 1200 ng/dl (peak) and 500-800 ng/dl (trough). I can get into fT/SHBG and all that if you are interested.

Two short stints of oxandrolone (4 weeks at 25-50 mg/day and another 6 weeks at 15 mg/day). Lipids/particle counts were crushed so I stopped.

Two ~19 week trials of Nandrolone Decanoate (80-120 mg/week). Extreme effect on mood, libido, ED, depression.

Massive effect on lean body mass. I can carry an additional 20-25 lb at same low bodyfat level on TRT + other AAS (not alway a good thing, especially on the heart). Combine with nutty weight training and lots of Tabata/HIIT and you may be asking for trouble (especially as you reach middle age).

Don't know what caused my current issue but plan is to reduce TRT dosage down to 50-70 mg/week and then eventually transition to Natesto/Equivalent or hCG then some type of PCT and see if I can get close to original endogenous TT level of 380-400 ng/dl. 6-12 months at significantly lower TT/fT levels should give me some indication if remodeling is possible and if the issue is athlete's heart or pathologic hypertrophy. I'll keep the exercise / pressure loading the same (although of course it won't be as the poundages will come down on the weights).

I think that's a poorly discussed synergy between PED/AAS/TRT and weight training for those that are predisposed to these types of heart issues. More lean body mass, more pressure loading with more weight lifted, more anabolic potential on the heart. I haven't done a PLS model to try and decouple it all.

Want to do TRT/TOT (after having done everything else correct...diet, training, etc) and you are on the borderline between clinical needed TRT and lifestyle TOT? Be careful what you wish for. I almost had myself deluded I could very wisely use anabolic therapies and there was a free lunch. The current data I have in hand seems to indicate there probably wasn't a free lunch and the bill has come due.

Thanks for taking a look and the thoughtful questions.

 

[tareload]

And to clarify, I'm speaking about potential risks of running your testosterone above your original hypothetical functional setpoint. At 18 years old was your peak TT level 400, 600, 800 ng/dl? Maybe you never had one and you've always been HH. For those that voluntarily go on TRT/TOT (because their PCP would never in a million years prescribe Testosterone), a word of caution.

Pre-TRT were you at 350 ng/dl peak? What's the risk now that you are running 1200 ng/dl (peak) and 500-600 ng/dl (trough). You are still "in range" from a population/95% distribution standpoint. But, so what? That still may be supraphysiologic for you. When you get into all the ion transporters in the body, all sorts of feedback loops, gene expression, receptors, etc, etc we have no idea what's going to happen 5-10 years down the road. All quite individual. It's the TRT/TOT equivalent of Goldman's Dilemma.

 

[Willyt]

Massive effect on lean body mass. I can carry an additional 20-25 lb at same low bodyfat level on TRT + other AAS (not alway a good thing, especially on the heart).

How much of that weight was water retention? I was carrying an extra 15lbs on 100mg cypionate per week and realized later that most of it was water. It created a number of health problems for me. I think much of the TRT world tends to underestimate the negative effects of increased water retention.

Pre-TRT were you at 350 ng/dl peak? What's the risk now that you are running 1200 ng/dl (peak) and 500-600 ng/dl (trough). You are still "in range" from a population/95% distribution standpoint. But, so what? That still may be supraphysiologic for you.

Very interesting concept. Are you suggesting that one should take into account their original baseline when determining their "personalized" ideal peak? It may help explain why some cannot handle higher doses as well as others.

I often wonder what my TT/FT was running at in my 20s and early 30s long before I regularly tested under 300 ng/dl in my mid-40s. My guess is that I was always on the low side, but that is just conjecture.

 

[tareload]

How much of that weight was water retention? I was carrying an extra 15lbs on 100mg cypionate per week and realized later that most of it was water. It created a number of health problems for me. I think much of the TRT world tends to underestimate the negative effects of increased water retention.

In first 3 months on TRT I think you are completely correct with the mineralocorticoid response which eventually reaches new setpoint. Since I'm on modifed keto diet for years I'd argue in my own case very little is water retention and almost all is LBM and associated water that comes with it. If I ate a lot of carbs, yep, I would blow up. Low carb makes for sometimes flat workouts and little pump, but you get good indication of "dry" gains.

Very interesting concept. Are you suggesting that one should take into account their original baseline when determining their "personalized" ideal peak? It may help explain why some cannot handle higher doses as well as others.

Absolutely although few probably know where their 18-20 YO self was actually with respect to TT/fT (assuming they were functional then).

But of course the TOT doctors will claim to shoot for optimized level of TT above 600 or 800 ng/dl trough or that you need to be in upper quartile to be optimized (whatever optimized means). Strangely, the objective function is never quite fully disclosed/defined.
"Yes Doc, I'd like congestive heart failure in 15 years along with the positive side effects short term. No problem."

 

[Cooper]

How much of that weight was water retention? I was carrying an extra 15lbs on 100mg cypionate per week and realized later that most of it was water.

What is your weekly dose now? If I recall you were doing daily shots at one time ?