Something as effective for joints as Nandrolone

[DixieWrecked]

Good afternoon Gents,

Was wondering if glucosamine, chondroitin, or MSM are even close to nandrolone when it comes to joint pain. Anyone have any experience?

 

[Fortunate]

Good afternoon Gents,

Was wondering if glucosamine, chondroitin, or MSM are even close to nandrolone when it comes to joint pain. Anyone have any experience?

There are anecdotes of these leading to relief in some, but no real good science to suggest that they work.

 

[TRicker]

Was wondering if glucosamine, chondroitin, or MSM are even close to nandrolone when it comes to joint pain. Anyone have any experience?

I don't have any experience with the above, however I have used Cissus (cissus quadrangularis) in the past and it did work for joint pain. I don't remember the brand or dosage, but I do recall it working within weeks or sooner. A couple old school body builders from my old gym swore by it, and recommended it.

 

[DixieWrecked]

I don't have any experience with the above, however I have used Cissus (cissus quadrangularis) in the past and it did work for joint pain. I don't remember the brand or dosage, but I do recall it working within weeks or sooner. A couple old school body builders from my old gym swore by it, and recommended it.

I remember reading all about cissus about 20 years ago on the forums and it was all the rage. But I was 20 and my joints were in mint condition. I started researching again after your post and it still seems like people love it. I'm going to try it. I just can't do the nandrolone.

 

[pedromillie]

I have been taking cissus with glucosamine for several years. Not as good as nandrolone, but it helps. I use nandrolone 200mg/week, 1 gram of cissus/day and 1gram of glucosamine/day.

 

[Dicky]

I had tendon pain for 1.5 years in my arms at both points where the tendon connects to the bicep and the forearm. I couldn't do any chin ups or arm curls at all. Too much pain. I'm 80-90% better after adding in MSM/glucosamine and collagen every day. I'd like to try nandrolone, but don't want to deal with messing up my current protocol.

 

[pedromillie]

I had tendon pain for 1.5 years in my arms at both points where the tendon connects to the bicep and the forearm. I couldn't do any chin ups or arm curls at all. Too much pain. I'm 80-90% better after adding in MSM/glucosamine and collagen every day. I'd like to try nandrolone, but don't want to deal with messing up my current protocol.

I started low with the nandrolone (I think 50mg/week) and waited 5 weeks before going up since this takes a long time to feel the full effect and it can take a long time if you take too much to go back. I found for me 200mg/week was the sweet spot. I would also take p5p supplement if you go over 100mg/week since it can raise your prolactin levels which could lead to ED or at least less of a pump. It is called Deca D..cK in the bodybuilding world, but they are using doses in the 400-800mg/week. Oily skin can also happen to some people at the higher doses which is why low and slow is the way to go. Any side effects will go away a few weeks after you stop so I think it's worth trying. It's been about a year and half for me since using it with no problem. Blood work had no negative impact.

 

[DixieWrecked]

I have been taking cissus with glucosamine for several years. Not as good as nandrolone, but it helps. I use nandrolone 200mg/week, 1 gram of cissus/day and 1gram of glucosamine/day.

I went for it and got powdered MSM. Glucosamine and chondroitin. And cissus.

I had tendon pain for 1.5 years in my arms at both points where the tendon connects to the bicep and the forearm. I couldn't do any chin ups or arm curls at all. Too much pain. I'm 80-90% better after adding in MSM/glucosamine and collagen every day. I'd like to try nandrolone, but don't want to deal with messing up my current protocol.

This is reassuring to hear. The MSM I bought was the powdered form so I can take quite a bit. I've started up with 3 grams.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Good afternoon Gents,

Was wondering if glucosamine, chondroitin, or MSM are even close to nandrolone when it comes to joint pain. Anyone have any experience?

I have read study after study on this same subject and they all seem to say the same thing, "the jury is still out."

"On the basis of the results of recent randomised controlled trials and meta-analyses, we can conclude that glucosamine sulfate (but not glucosamine hydrochloride) and chondroitin sulfate have small-to-moderate symptomatic efficacy in OA, although this is still debated. With respect to the structure-modifying effect, there is compelling evidence that glucosamine sulfate and chondroitin sulfate may interfere with progression of OA."

Bruyere, O., Reginster, JY. Glucosamine and Chondroitin Sulfate as Therapeutic Agents for Knee and Hip Osteoarthritis. Drugs Aging 24, 573–580 (2007). https://doi.org/10.2165/00002512-200724070-00005

That being said, I take 1500mg/d just in case.

Here is one that show a positive effect on slowing the progress of osteoarthritis

Pavelká, K., Gatterová, J., Olejarová, M., Machacek, S., Giacovelli, G., & Rovati, L. C. (2002). Glucosamine sulfate use and delay of progression of knee osteoarthritis: a 3-year, randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind study. Archives of internal medicine, 162(18), 2113-2123.

Conclusion Long-term treatment with glucosamine sulfate retarded the progression of knee osteoarthritis, possibly determining disease modification.

 

[madman]

Good afternoon Gents,

Was wondering if glucosamine, chondroitin, or MSM are even close to nandrolone when it comes to joint pain. Anyone have any experience?

Highly doubtful!

 

[madman]

I started low with the nandrolone (I think 50mg/week) and waited 5 weeks before going up since this takes a long time to feel the full effect and it can take a long time if you take too much to go back. I found for me 200mg/week was the sweet spot. I would also take p5p supplement if you go over 100mg/week since it can raise your prolactin levels which could lead to ED or at least less of a pump. It is called Deca D..cK in the bodybuilding world, but they are using doses in the 400-800mg/week. Oily skin can also happen to some people at the higher doses which is why low and slow is the way to go. Any side effects will go away a few weeks after you stop so I think it's worth trying. It's been about a year and half for me since using it with no problem. Blood work had no negative impact.

You have not even achieved steady-state 5 weeks in due to the half-life of the decanoate ester.

You upped your dose way too early.

Hormones will be in FLUX during the weeks leading up until steady-state is achieved and it is common for many to experience ups/downs during the transition as the body is trying to adjust.

Even once blood levels have stabilized it will take time for the body to ADAPT to the new set-point and this is the critical time period when one should gauge how they truly feel overall regarding relief/improvement.

Would be giving any T-only protocol let alone T + ND 12 weeks before claiming whether it was truly a success or failure.

200 mg/week ND is overkill and plays no part in trt/hrt.

If one were running a very low weekly dose of T <100 mg due to sides or an ND-only protocol (would never recommend).....sure!

Even then highly doubtful that one would need to be adding 200 mg ND to a low-dose < 100 mg/week T protocol.

The therapeutic dose of ND for possible joint/bone pain relief is 50 -100 mg/week.

 

[madman]

Although using therapeutic doses (50-100 mg/week) of ND can minimize joint pain/stiffness for some it is a grave mistake to think that using it will prevent any further damage to joints/ligaments and tendons especially if you continue to keep lifting heavy long-term.

No amount of ND/AAS let alone GH is going to prevent/heal damage to joints/ligaments/tendons from overuse/repetitive heavy lifting long-term.

Talk to anyone who has been lifting heavy let alone training for years eventually there will be some degree of wear and tear especially on the joints/tendons.

Many men struggling with what they think is tendonitis end up having tendinosis which is degeneration of the tendons.

Regarding tendonitis in most cases when one has been strength training for a long time (years) most in fact develop tendinosis as opposed to tendinitis (which they think they have) and when one develops tendinosis the tendons are much more prone to a tear as tendinosis is a degeneration of the tendons collagen from chronic overuse.

Aging will also have a big impact on tendon/joint health.

As we age one needs to train smarter as you will notice it is very common for most who have weight trained for years to end up with damage to the joints/ligaments/tendons from the repetitive wear/tear on the body.

Important points to keep in mind:


* worn out/degenerative cartilage never grows back

* individual tendon architecture is exquisitely tuned for optimal function, and scar-like healing generally fails to return to its pre-injury structure

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Madman, I did get a call from some company doing a clinical trial, needing subjects. Apparently some pharma company had developed a medication that may regenerate cartilage. Unfortunately they would not take me because I was already determined to be a candidate for joint replacement. Perhaps thing will change in the near future.

 

[CKO]

I've had some luck with bone broth.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

I've had some luck with bone broth.

Bone broth contains collagen.....

Moskowitz RW. Role of collagen hydrolysate in bone and joint disease. Semin Arthritis Rheum. 2000 Oct;30(2):87-99. doi: 10.1053/sarh.2000.9622. PMID: 11071580.

Abstract
Objectives: To review the current status of collagen hydrolysate in the treatment of osteoarthritis and osteoporosis.

Methods: Review of past and current literature relative to collagen hydrolysate metabolism, and assessment of clinical investigations of therapeutic trials in osteoarthritis and osteoporosis.

Results: Hydrolyzed gelatin products have long been used in pharmaceuticals and foods; these products are generally recognized as safe food products by regulatory agencies. Pharmaceutical-grade collagen hydrolysate (PCH) is obtained by hydrolysis of pharmaceutical gelatin. Clinical studies suggest that the ingestion of 10 g PCH daily reduces pain in patients with osteoarthritis of the knee or hip; blood concentration of hydroxyproline is increased. Clinical use is associated with minimal adverse effects, mainly gastrointestinal, characterized by fullness or unpleasant taste. In a multicenter, randomized, doubleblind, placebo-controlled trial performed in clinics in the United States, United Kingdom, and Germany, results showed no statistically significant differences for the total study group (all sites) for differences of mean pain score for pain. There was, however, a significant treatment advantage of PCH over placebo in German sites. In addition, increased efficacy for PCH as compared to placebo was observed in the overall study population amongst patients with more severe symptomatology at study onset. Preferential accumulation of 14C-labeled gelatin hydrolysate in cartilage as compared with administration of 14C-labeled proline has been reported. This preferential uptake by cartilage suggests that PCH may have a salutary effect on cartilage metabolism. Given the important role for collagen in bone structure, the effect of PCH on bone metabolism in osteoporotic persons has been evaluated. Studies of the effects of calcitonin with and without a collagen hydrolysate-rich diet suggested that calcitonin plus PCH had a greater effect in inhibiting bone collagen breakdown than calcitonin alone, as characterized by a fall in levels of urinary pyridinoline cross-links. PCH appeared to have an additive effect relative to use of calcitonin alone.

Conclusions: Collagen hydrolysate is of interest as a therapeutic agent of potential utility in the treatment of osteoarthritis and osteoporosis. Its high level of safety makes it attractive as an agent for long-term use in these chronic disorders.

 

[Anonymon]

BPC-157 works wonders if it’s an issue of poor healing from repeat use or in general. I’m generally really solid when it comes to joint health but I have a couple of injuries that I’ve had flair up before. Each time BPC-157 knocked it out in a week and it rehealed. I’m on GH peptides too and at times just HGH which bolsters that as well, but originally it was just BPC and it worked.

It’ll only work if it’s something you can heal from. You can’t heal from everything.

 

[DixieWrecked]

I'm not trying to jinx myself here but I have been on Glucosamine, Chondritin, MSM, and Cissus for 4 days and my shoulder feels pretty damn good. I'm sleeping better because there is no discomfort to wake me up. I am able to do certain movements in the gym with much less pain. I'll keep everyone posted but so far I am absolutely impressed and shocked that I feel this well and this quickly. Now I just need to see if it stays this way or improves even more.

 

[DixieWrecked]

Wanted to give an update that if you got bad joints and wanted to try something, MSM has worked like a dream for me. I sleep so much better now. My range of motion in the gym is greatly improved. Pain during exercise has reduced dramatically. I am honestly shocked how well it has worked.

 

[Dicky]

Wanted to give an update that if you got bad joints and wanted to try something, MSM has worked like a dream for me. I sleep so much better now. My range of motion in the gym is greatly improved. Pain during exercise has reduced dramatically. I am honestly shocked how well it has worked.

That must be a relief. What product are you using?

 

[DixieWrecked]

Ive been using the vitamin shoppe brand. It's a powder so I can take a lot. I ended up dropping the cissus and the glucosamine and chondritin and the relief remained from just the MSM. Its not too expensive for how uch you get and I think it gets ridiculously cheap on Amazon.