Results are in (HCG potency)

[Gman86]

So had my first labs done while on Empower's HCG. Prior, have been using Pregnyl HCG with all my protocols.

(PREGNYL HCG)
6-16-17 labs were while on this protocol:
TEST - 108mg/ week. Split into EOD injections
HCG - 1000iu/ week. Split into EOD injections
No AI

TOTAL T - 1855 (250-1100 ng/dL)
FREE T - 296.8 (46.0-224.0)
SHBG 44 (10-50)
E2 NOT Sensitive - 71
E2 Free - 1.88 (<0.45)
DHT - 142 (16-79)
Progesterone - 0.9 (<1.4)
Prolactin - 7.5 (2.0-18.0)


(PREGNYL HCG)
2-15-18 labs were while on this protocol:
TEST- 108mg/ week. Split into EOD injections
HCG - 800iu/ week. Split into EOD injections
No AI

TOTAL T - 1687 (250-1100 ng/dL)
FREE T - 238.6 (46.0-224.0)
BIO AVAIL. T - 459.6 (110.0-575.0 ng/dL)
SHBG 47 (10-50)
E2 Sensitive - 73
E2 NOT Sensitive - 59
DHT - 121 (16-79)
Progesterone - 1.0 (<1.4)
Prolactin - 7.4 (2.0-18.0)


(EMPOWER HCG)
7-9-18 labs were while on this protocol:
TEST- 101mg/ week. Split into EOD injections
HCG - 800iu/ week. Split into EOD injections
No AI

TOTAL T - 1147 (250-1100 ng/dL)
FREE T - 138.8 (46.0-224.0)
BIO AVAIL. T - 303.6 (110.0-575.0 ng/dL)
SHBG 47 (10-50)
E2 Sensitive - 46
E2 NOT Sensitive - 27
E2 Free - 0.58 (<0.45)
DHT - 98 (16-79)
Progesterone - 0.7 (<1.4)
Prolactin - 7.7 (2.0-18.0)


Also, I've been on HCG monotherapy with Pregnyl, so I know roughly how much testosterone certain doses of HCG produce with Pregynyl. Here were my HCG mono labs with Pregnyl.


Pregnyl HCG
12-30-15 labs were while on this protocol:
HCG - 2000iu/ week. Split into EOD dosing
Anastrozole 0.25mg 2x/ week
TOTAL T - 1185 (250-1100 ng/dL)
FREE T - 171.7 (46.0-224.0)
BIOAVAIL T - 345.6 (110.0-575.0 ng/dL)
SHBG 39 (10-50)
E2 Sensitive - 43

Pregnyl HCG
2-11-16 labs were while on this protocol:
HCG - 2000iu/ week. Split into EOD dosing
Anastrozole 0.25mg 2x/ week
TOTAL T - 1193 (250-1100 ng/dL)
FREE T - 168.9 (46.0-224.0)
BIOAVAIL T - 362.1 (110.0-575.0 ng/dL)
SHBG 39 (10-50)
E2 Sensitive - 55

Pregnyl HCG
4-12-16 labs were while on this protocol:
HCG - 1000iu/ week. Split into EOD dosing
Anastrozole 0.25mg 2x/ week
TOTAL T - 579 (250-1100 ng/dL)
FREE T - 71.4 (46.0-224.0)
BIO AVAIL. T - 143.8 (110.0-575.0 ng/dL)
SHBG 38 (10-50)
E2 Sensitive - 11

To sum up what Pregnyl HCG basically does for me is this:
2,000iu/ week = 1200 Total T
1,000iu/ week = 600 Total T
800iu/ week (Should be 480 Total T based off of my results above. 800iu is 80% of 1,000iu. So if 1,000iu produces 600, 80% of 600 is 480) So basically adding 800iu of Pregnyl each week to my TRT should add roughly around 480 points to my total T value.


So after analyzing all my blood work while on Pregnyl, I think it's safe to say while on my latest protocol, Empower HCG had very little effect on my total testosterone number. Drastically less than Pregnyl would of had. I would of imagined my Total T being roughly around 1550 minimum, if I was using Pregnyl. But while using Empower's HCG, my total was 1147.

Also, just another observation, testicles are not near as full as they were while on Pregnyl. I've recently bumped up my dose to 1,000iu/ week of Empower's HCG and still no improvement in testicular size. Will be trying 1200iu/ week to see if it makes any difference. That's the highest I'm willing to go with HCG when in conjunction with testosterone cypionate.

 

[MarkM]

That is a big difference in results with two products that SHOULD produce similar results with a much smaller gap between them.

 

[Gman86]

That is a big difference in results with two products that SHOULD produce similar results with a much smaller gap between them.

Exactly Mark. And if you ask anyone at the compounding pharmacies, they say it's impossible due to their product being the exact same thing as pharmacy grade HCG, which I'm not arguing. It may be the exact same type and potency of HCG, I have no idea, I'm not smart enough to know whether that's true or not lol. So the only difference that I'm intelligent enough to figure out is possibly the bacteriostatic water. Pregnyl comes with Bacteriostatic water mixed with sodium chloride. All the compounding pharmacy brands of HCG I've used come with just plain bacteriostatic water. From what I've read, the sodium chloride helps to prolong shelf life once reconstituted, A.K.A. decrease loss of potency over time.

So this is the only difference I can think of that may be causing the varying results. One thing I do know for sure now though is, at least for me and I suspect a lot of others, Pregnyl 100% stimulates leydig cells at a much greater degree than compounding pharmacy HCG, all using similar doses. Backed up by blood work and objective testicular size.

 

[maxadvance]

I'd be worried about my friggin kidneys with the numbers you're trying to maintain

 

[lexer]

Having a T level of 1500 is way too high and you can encounter all kinds of health issues. Those are steroid cycle levels.
how old are you?
any issues with hair loss?

 

[Vince Carter]

His total really doesn't matter given his SHBG, if you look at his FT he's well within an acceptable spot even being above range but not by a ton. I balked at his 1855, too, but there's more to the story than the number alone as we know high(er) SHBG guys have to run high totals to get the FT to come up.

Kinds of backs up some of the conversation about compounded HCG and a number of us that use it state that it offers no tangible benefits, besides nuts are not shrunken up.

I've never used HCG outside of the compounded variety and it's never done a thing for me, Empower or Hallandale. Not sure if APS ever gave me HCG.

 

[Gman86]

Having a T level of 1500 is way too high and you can encounter all kinds of health issues. Those are steroid cycle levels.
how old are you?
any issues with hair loss?

I'm 32. No issues with hair loss. The high DHT doesn't seem to effect my hair thank god.

And a couple things you guys have to factor in here. I inject EOD, and I draw labs the morning prior to injection. So these numbers are basically close to my peak. A lot of men that inject once per week have similar peaks, they just get their labs done at trough, so they look more normal on lab work. But it's not uncommon for them to reach 1600 at their peak.

The other thing to factor in is how much my SHBG binds up my free testosterone. Many men here have their free testosterone either at the top of the normal range or above. Quite a few members have well over the normal limit for free testosterone, and nobody says anything as long as their total T is not "too high". I've seen men on here that have close to double the normal limit of free T, and guys will just say "labs look great!" But if total T is too high, guys freak out. In my case, my SHBG binds my free T up to a great degree, and to get my free T in the upper 1/3 of the range, it requires my total T to be higher than most.

Health wise I'm great. Not one health issue that I can think of. I'm a nurse, and check my blood pressure daily in the morning, which runs as high as 110/60, and as low as 102/56. Morning pulse rate runs between 59-68. Cholesterol always comes back perfect. Kidney and liver function are all in healthy ranges. Like I said, not one health issue that I can think of off the top of my head. And I'm not exaggerating how healthy I am to try and justify my higher total T. It's true. My insurance covers my labs 100%, so I get extensive labs done constantly. I can post all my labs and my daily journal of blood pressures and pulse rates if anyone wants. HCT is slightly high, but doesn't cause any issues. Plus, from all the research I've done, having a HCT slightly above range isn't detrimental to your health most of the time, especially considering I'm asymptomatic. Plus I'm a health freak. I eat healthy and have been going to the gym since I was 14 without more than a week or two off. And get regular cardio in.

 

[Gman86]

I'd be worried about my friggin kidneys with the numbers you're trying to maintain

Kidney's are working great according to my blood work. In fact, my creatinine always runs on the lower side, so I started supplementing with creatine to get it up, and my latest blood work came back with creatinine still on the low end of normal.

 

[Gman86]

His total really doesn't matter given his SHBG, if you look at his FT he's well within an acceptable spot even being above range but not by a ton. I balked at his 1855, too, but there's more to the story than the number alone as we know high(er) SHBG guys have to run high totals to get the FT to come up.

Kinds of backs up some of the conversation about compounded HCG and a number of us that use it state that it offers no tangible benefits, besides nuts are not shrunken up.

I've never used HCG outside of the compounded variety and it's never done a thing for me, Empower or Hallandale. Not sure if APS ever gave me HCG.

Smart man right here! lol. But in all honestly, if I was you guys I would probably have the same initial reaction seeing a total T of 1855. And just for the record, I don't really want my total T that high. When my total was that high, my free T was above the normal range. Free T is what I care about, so I obviously want my levels to be lower than they were during those labs, and since then I've been trying to tweak my protocol to do so. The only thing that's prolonged this process is having to switch from Pregnyl HCG to Empower's HCG. I basically have to start over since Empower's HCG isn't contributing much to my total T. So now I have to tweak my testosterone dose to compensate, as well as raise my HCG dose to see if I can get my testicles to plump up a bit. They would be about double the size they are now if I was on the same dose of Pregnyl. While on Pregnyl my testicles were very nice and full and firm. I should be around where I need to be after getting two more sets of labs done over the next 4-6 months or so. I would of already had my numbers pretty much dialed in if I could of stayed on Pregnyl.

 

[ratbag]

Don't forget with the Empower HCG you used 7mg less of Testosterone so it's not perfectly comparable. 7mg does make a difference. Or was that a typo?

 

[Gman86]

Don't forget with the Empower HCG you used 7mg less of Testosterone so it's not perfectly comparable. 7mg does make a difference. Or was that a typo?

No it was the correct dosage. I was using 7mg less on my current protocol. So my total T was 1687 while on 108mg/ week of test and 800iu/ week of HCG (last protocol) vs 1147 while on 101mg/ week of test and 800iu/ week of HCG (current protocol). I agree dropping my testosterone dose by 7mg would decrease total T obviously, but by 540 points? If that were the case, that would mean for me to get my levels to 540, all I would need to do was 7mg test/ week along with 800iu HCG/ week. Although convenient and cost effective, highly unlikely.

 

[Vince]

Have you noticed any difference in sperm volume between the two types of HCG?

 

[Gman86]

Have you noticed any difference in sperm volume between the two types of HCG?

I have definitely noticed a reduction in sperm volume and the power that ejaculate shoots out. It's not as great of a reduction as I would of thought though considering how much smaller my testicles are compared to Pregnyl. I would say the sperm volume and ejaculate pressure has gone down about 30-40% compared to Pregnyl. I think orgasm intensity has decreased as well.

Before my latest labs I was thinking the smaller, softer testicles were due to high estrogen. I also attributed lower ejaculate volume and pressure to high E2. After my recent labs, however, I think it has more to do with the brand of HCG I was using than E2 levels.

 

[Vince Carter]

Were you ever diagnosed primary or secondary? If you were secondary it would (could) account for the endo T bump you got from the Pregnyl. However if you were primary then something else is wrong as the core problem being the testes (primary hypo) you won't get any appreciable endo T production no matter the HCG formulation.

 

[Gman86]

Were you ever diagnosed primary or secondary? If you were secondary it would (could) account for the endo T bump you got from the Pregnyl. However if you were primary then something else is wrong as the core problem being the testes (primary hypo) you won't get any appreciable endo T production no matter the HCG formulation.

I'm definitely secondary. I would say I'm very secondary actually. While on Pregnyl at 2,000iu/ week, total T was around 1200. While on Clomid 50mg/ day, total T was 1535. So with the right stimulation, my testicles/ leydig cells respond very well and consequently produce quite a lot of endogenous T.


These were the first labs I ever had done, which also clearly show I'm secondary.

8-5-15 labs were while on NOTHING

Total T - 584 (348-1197)
Free T - 7.3 (9.3-26.5)
E2 NOT sensitive - 14.6 (7.6-42.6)
SHBG - 57.1 ( 16.5 - 55.9)
LH - 3.5 (1.7-8.6)
FSH - 2.3 (1.5-12.4)

 

[galaxy]

Great info Gman. I'm on pregnyl and will most definitely stay the course. Rather than switch.

Curious is there any concern about compounded testosterone vs brand name? Or not really given testosterone isn't as fragile as Hcg?

 

[Gman86]

Great info Gman. I'm on pregnyl and will most definitely stay the course. Rather than switch.

Curious is there any concern about compounded testosterone vs brand name? Or not really given testosterone isn't as fragile as Hcg?

I’ve only ever used compounding pharmacy testosterone cypionate from Empower pharmacy, so I’m not the best to comment on the differences. But i’m almost positive that there’s no difference as far as testosterone goes. For instance, I started out on 108mg of test and 1000iu of Pregnyl HCG per week, and my total T came back at 1855. So for me, compounded testosterone works better than what I even expected. And from what i’ve read with other guy’s, testosterone isnt’t something that needs to be brand named to be effective.

Do do you mind if I ask you where you get your Pregnyl and how much you pay? I used to get it with a GoodRX coupon for $104. But ever since CVS told me Pregnyl has been discontinued by it’s manufacturer, GoodRX jumped up to $1067 per 10,000iu vial! I can still get it for $150 at a local compounding pharmacy that still has some in stock, but I figured if it’s dosconitnued i’m going to have to switch eventually. So might as well switch now and start getting my labs on this new HCG so I can redial my numbers in. I had a gut feeling my numbers would be a lot different now that i’m on a compounding pharmacy’s HCG.

 

[ratbag]

Gman86 who supplies your Pregnyl? is it offshore or Hallendale? I have some from Hallendale but it's compounded so it has no name on it. I haven't used it yet I'm still using Corion from ReliableRx.

 

[Weasel]

Very interesting thread. I'd love to see our Empower rep that frequents this board chime in.

 

[Vince Carter]

A few of the industry or medical pros even a Dr or two have been around on this topic previously to say your concerns about compounded HCG potency are unfounded.