Opting for E5D or E7D injection schedule

[HyperResponder]

Anecdotally a lot of guys on here feel best when they first alter their protocol in some way or another, but a few days or a week later they are back to sub-optimal experiences. I've been an EOD injector for years, but I've been thinking about how there are tons of guys going to the commercial clinics getting E7D or even E14D injections who are basically always going through some kind of change, a sharp rise and then a falling of their levels.

I guess my question is, has anyone really ever had success in chasing this "just changed my protocol" positive state by opting for longer durations between injections?

I bet i'm gonna get some big pushback about "mirroring nature with frequent injections" and I share that principal, but I'm also curious. Any success stories out there to fill the anecdotal evidence basket?

I've read this forum for years and you're all great.

 

[Cataceous]

In reality frequent injections of a longer ester such as cypionate are not exactly mirroring nature either. Most men see little variation in serum testosterone with this kind of protocol. Young men in particular naturally have a pronounced diurnal rhythm in serum testosterone, with a morning peak and and evening trough. I've discussed how this might be imitated with daily injections of a blend of testosterone propionate and a longer ester. I use such a protocol and believe it has subtle benefits compared to having nearly steady serum testosterone. However, it does not provide a continuous recreation of the honeymoon effect you mention in the context of protocol changes.

While there are men who seem to do better with less frequent injections, my impression is that this is a minority. With injections of T cypionate once a week, for instance, it's common to see peak serum testosterone be two to three times higher than trough testosterone. That's a pretty severe difference when you consider that a guy is spending a significant amount of time with levels around the extremes. It's also less likely that levels remain in a physiological range. For example, if you don't want your trough testosterone below 500 ng/dL then your peak is going to be well over 1,000 ng/dL. If you limit your peak then your trough may be unreasonably low. Low levels are ok and natural when they occur for a limited time each day. But they may cause trouble if they go on for a day or two.

 

[HyperResponder]

In reality frequent injections of a longer ester such as cypionate are not exactly mirroring nature either. Most men see little variation in serum testosterone with this kind of protocol. Young men in particular naturally have a pronounced diurnal rhythm in serum testosterone, with a morning peak and and evening trough. I've discussed how this might be imitated with daily injections of a blend of testosterone propionate and a longer ester. I use such a protocol and believe it has subtle benefits compared to having nearly steady serum testosterone. However, it does not provide a continuous recreation of the honeymoon effect you mention in the context of protocol changes.

While there are men who seem to do better with less frequent injections, my impression is that this is a minority. With injections of T cypionate once a week, for instance, it's common to see peak serum testosterone be two to three times higher than trough testosterone. That's a pretty severe difference when you consider that a guy is spending a significant amount of time with levels around the extremes. It's also less likely that levels remain in a physiological range. For example, if you don't want your trough testosterone below 500 ng/dL then your peak is going to be well over 1,000 ng/dL. If you limit your peak then your trough may be unreasonably low. Low levels are ok and natural when they occur for a limited time each day. But they may cause trouble if they go on for a day or two.

Thank you for your thoughful response. You’ve given me a lot to think about.

 

[TLawyer]

In reality frequent injections of a longer ester such as cypionate are not exactly mirroring nature either. Most men see little variation in serum testosterone with this kind of protocol. Young men in particular naturally have a pronounced diurnal rhythm in serum testosterone, with a morning peak and and evening trough. I've discussed how this might be imitated with daily injections of a blend of testosterone propionate and a longer ester. I use such a protocol and believe it has subtle benefits compared to having nearly steady serum testosterone. However, it does not provide a continuous recreation of the honeymoon effect you mention in the context of protocol changes.

While there are men who seem to do better with less frequent injections, my impression is that this is a minority. With injections of T cypionate once a week, for instance, it's common to see peak serum testosterone be two to three times higher than trough testosterone. That's a pretty severe difference when you consider that a guy is spending a significant amount of time with levels around the extremes. It's also less likely that levels remain in a physiological range. For example, if you don't want your trough testosterone below 500 ng/dL then your peak is going to be well over 1,000 ng/dL. If you limit your peak then your trough may be unreasonably low. Low levels are ok and natural when they occur for a limited time each day. But they may cause trouble if they go on for a day or two.

I'm considering giving Natesto a try (or the Empower equivalent) and have given this some thought. I've had decent results on Enclomiphene and like keeping my natural production, but I want to see if I can do better, particularly after the study that showed a significant improvement in a few areas (including libido) for those who moved from Clomid to Natesto. I've seen the studies that show the rapid increase in peak levels about an hour after using it, and then a decline back to baseline 6 hours or so later. I guess the study results suggest that will be effective, but I just wonder what happens if the trough is too low and how that will impact results. There is such a focus on measuring peak levels, but trough levels and the impact that may have seem to be largely ignored. I guess that is because with cypionate there really isn't much variation.

 

[HyperResponder]

I'm considering giving Natesto a try (or the Empower equivalent) and have given this some thought. I've had decent results on Enclomiphene and like keeping my natural production, but I want to see if I can do better, particularly after the study that showed a significant improvement in a few areas (including libido) for those who moved from Clomid to Natesto. I've seen the studies that show the rapid increase in peak levels about an hour after using it, and then a decline back to baseline 6 hours or so later. I guess the study results suggest that will be effective, but I just wonder what happens if the trough is too low and how that will impact results. There is such a focus on measuring peak levels, but trough levels and the impact that may have seem to be largely ignored. I guess that is because with cypionate there really isn't much variation.

I hadn’t learned about Natesto before reading your post. I see a lot of guys on Reddit hating on it because they only consider injections valid for some reason. Yawn. I hear your concern about low trough levels and it makes me wonder about a combination of maintaining a baseline T with low low injection cypionate or Enanthate and then add Natesto. Keep the trough levels a little higher and then experience the diurnal quality of Natesto. Reading your post though, it doesn’t sound like you are injecting at all so maybe you’re not interested in injections at all.

 

[Cataceous]

... I guess the study results suggest that will be effective, but I just wonder what happens if the trough is too low and how that will impact results. There is such a focus on measuring peak levels, but trough levels and the impact that may have seem to be largely ignored. I guess that is because with cypionate there really isn't much variation.

I'd say the Natesto data are suggesting that even fairly low troughs are not much of a problem when they're limited to part of each day. One study reports mean baseline testosterone of 230 ng/dL with a standard deviation of 62. This implies a reasonable number of guys functioning at quite low trough levels. In the forums I've seen very few cases where a guy reports testosterone under 100 ng/dL.

...I hear your concern about low trough levels and it makes me wonder about a combination of maintaining a baseline T with low low injection cypionate or Enanthate and then add Natesto. Keep the trough levels a little higher and then experience the diurnal quality of Natesto. ...

Most likely this would lead to HPTA shutdown, removing the main benefit of Natesto. If all you want is diurnal variation then an ester blend would be simpler and cheaper.

 

[Cooper]

Doesn't testosterone cream potentially provide a more "natural" diurnal rhythm in serum testosterone, with a morning peak and and evening trough?

 

[Cataceous]

Doesn't testosterone cream potentially provide a more "natural" diurnal rhythm in serum testosterone, with a morning peak and and evening trough?

In some cases it may. But the less concentrated products in particular may give unpredictable results. Then there's the common problem of having unnaturally high DHT levels.

 

[MIP1950]

I've mentioned this doctor on Testosterone Nation who goes by the screen name highpull. He and his wife are on hormone replacement. He does one shot a week, 200 mg. He prescribes one injection a week for most of his patients and he generally sees good results with that simple protocol. No ai, though he told me he's not opposed to using one if there appears to be a need. IIRC, he stated that 75% of his patients were doing a weekly injection. The other 25% are either E3.5d or EOD. Nor does he mention ancillaries or supplements, though perhaps some of his patients are using them.

I'm certainly not arguing against men who find they need to ultra fine tune what they're doing, as in low dose daily shots or even daily micro dosing. Hell, I'm a problem case, having been on every protocol, now coming full circle, and, with my urologist's okay, doing 100 mg IM, E5D, going into my third month. My erectile function still hit and miss and perhaps it going to be a slow roll. I'm willing to be patient. Impatience has been a problem for me.