Latest Blood Work - Input Requested & Comparison of SubQ to IM

[Saul]

This is a two part post. Sorry for the long post.
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First, any advice or comments on the following blood work. My first test for everything listed except for Total and Free T, and Estradiol so I would be grateful for your opinions. I don’t fully understand all the thyroid labs or prolactin, but everything was in range.
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My protocol for the 8 weeks prior to this blood draw was Test Cyp at 35 mg every 3 days (about 81 mg / week) with SubQ injections into stomach fat varying in location from love handles (not that I have any!) to about 2 inches from belly button. No HCG or AI. No pain or any issues with SubQ injections. Blood draw occurred in the morning before an injection. I was using 28 G, 1/2“ insulin syringe. I also started taking 15 mg of zinc picolinate with dinner. I am 16% body fat in case that matters and eat healthy and exercise. Overall I feel pretty good. Thanks for any input.
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Testosterone,Free and Total 639 ng/dL Reference Range: 264 - 916 01
Free Testosterone(Direct) 16.9 pg/mL Reference Range: 6.8 - 21.5
Dihydrotestosterone 59 ng/dL Reference Range: Adult Male: 30 – 85
Thyroxine (T4) Free, (Direct) 1.41 ng/dL Reference Range: 0.82 - 1.77
TSH 1.420 uIU/mL Reference Range: 0.450 - 4.500 01
Prolactin 9.1 ng/mL Reference Range: 4.0 - 15.2 01
Estradiol, Sensitive 36.0 High pg/mL Reference Range: 8.0 - 35.0
Triiodothyronine,Free,Serum 2.8 pg/mL Reference Range: 2.0 - 4.4
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Second, we can compare this to my prior protocol, which was Test Cyp at about 70 mg every week IM into thigh muscle. Blood draw was about 5 days after last injection, so not right before next shot, but about two days until next shot. No HCG or AI. Injections with 25 G, 1 inch needle.
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Testosterone, Total LC/MS 671.2 ng/dL Reference Range: 264.0 - 916.0 02
Free Testosterone(Direct) 16.9 pg/mL Reference Range: 6.8 - 21.5 02
Estradiol, Sensitive 39.9 High pg/mL Reference Range: 8.0 - 35.0
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Notwithstanding any difference in the timing of the blood draw, the more frequent injection and zinc appears to have lowered my Estradiol by a few points. I was bit concerned at 40 and 36 seems better, but I felt good at 40. I prefer SubQ injections as I occasionally get a bit of soreness when doing IM and mentally I prefer SubQ over IM since it seems less damaging (true or not). But, IMO, I felt better when I inject IM – hard to explain, maybe just in my mind, but felt like I had more energy, less anxiety, and more mental ambition/confidence. Maybe that was still part of the cherry high. Also could have been other life factors – not everything is T related. But, in my mind I felt a bit better with IM. My T did drop a bit with E3D injections SubQ but that could have been blood draw timing or due to SubQ. I have read others noticed a drop in T when going to SubQ, but my drop is small.

 

[Vince]

Would you consider trying a shallow IM, with an easy touch 27g 1/2" or 29g 1/2" syringe. That's what I use.

 

[Saul]

Would you consider trying a shallow IM, with an easy touch 27g 1/2" or 29g 1/2" syringe. That's what I use.

Yes, based on your and other input, that is what I am doing now. Mostly in the thigh, but will try the VG location you proposed and maybe shoulder.

 

[Vince]

Yes, based on your and other input, that is what I am doing now. Mostly in the thigh, but will try the VG location you proposed and maybe shoulder.

That's great I hope you have success with your new injection site.

 

[FeelingLost]

Hi Saul, I have no advice you are much farther along this TRT path than me.
That said from a beginners view point your numbers look pretty good. It seems you have found the max TT without
an AI or HCG with a 36 E2 and prolactin still in check. Nicely done.

They do say one should not chase numbers How you feel is the most important part of all this.

Still as a newbie I am curious what a TT of 1000 and even 1300 feels like.
Since everyone is different you really can't go by what others have experienced at those lvl.
I am pretty sure one could not go there without an AI to tame the E2 explosion.

 

[Vince Carter]

It's all in your head, sorry to say. The move to SQ had one thing and one thing only at play and that was allowing men to use thinner and shorter needles than IM. That's it. anything about absorption or aromatase is all speculative and subjective and then in your specific instance of post #1 you have so many variables between what you did that the two aren't even comparable.

 

[Saul]

It's all in your head, sorry to say.

I tend to agree. My numbers are pretty much the same. Still though, what's in our head is often what we use to judge our protocol or how we feel. In my mind I felt a bit less good but there were other things going on, such as an office move that was full of stress and long days, poor sleep nights, and a shoulder injury that could have tainted my perception of that period. In any case, on either IM or SubQ I am much better than before TRT and I would not call any difference significant, and the numbers back that up.

 

[Saul]

Hi Saul, I have no advice you are much farther along this TRT path than me.
That said from a beginners view point your numbers look pretty good. It seems you have found the max TT without
an AI or HCG with a 36 E2 and prolactin still in check. Nicely done.

They do say one should not chase numbers How you feel is the most important part of all this.

Still as a newbie I am curious what a TT of 1000 and even 1300 feels like.
Since everyone is different you really can't go by what others have experienced at those lvl.
I am pretty sure one could not go there without an AI to tame the E2 explosion.

TT at 1300 probably feels damn good. Ha ha. I don't know if I have it dialed in. I don't know if I need HGC and many would consider TT of ~650 too low. But based on that other thread where the T levels were charted each day, with my trough at 650 at my peak I could be near 1000, which is the normal range. Based on that other thread, people with a trough at 1000 could be peaking at 1500 !! I think I could feel better at a higher TT level but would, like you said, need AI. I am doing pretty good now. I have enough energy/ambition to go to the gym and get stuff done on the weekend and I don't want to just lay on the couch at night. I don't know what the right range is for me but I am good for now.

 

[TheDude]

How long were you on each protocol before you drew the labs? What does your SHBG look like?

 

[Saul]

How long were you on each protocol before you drew the labs? What does your SHBG look like?

Prior protocol was at least 6 weeks. Most current protocol was 8 weeks. My SHBG was tested on 8/28/2017 under prior protocol and it was 40.7 in a range of 16.5 to 55.9.

 

[CoastWatcher]

It's all in your head, sorry to say. The move to SQ had one thing and one thing only at play and that was allowing men to use thinner and shorter needles than IM. That's it. anything about absorption or aromatase is all speculative and subjective and then in your specific instance of post #1 you have so many variables between what you did that the two aren't even comparable.

We have members who went from IM to SQ, waited six weeks, and their labs show an overall improvement. We have members who went from SQ to IM, and their labs show improvement. We have members who made one of the two switches and things went backwards, the numbers suffered, and guys who made the switch and saw no change. Everyone acted in good faith...but if there's a consistent angle - across the board - for injection style it's not been found yet.

 

[TheDude]

Prior protocol was at least 6 weeks. Most current protocol was 8 weeks. My SHBG was tested on 8/28/2017 under prior protocol and it was 40.7 in a range of 16.5 to 55.9.

So, basically your labs didn't change. That would lead me to believe that the SubQ injections would be your go to.