Hypogonadism at 20 years old

[Paul_Martin]

Hallo every one! very informative forum, found a lot of useful information about my problem. I wanna ask you for advises guys, i am 20 years old 6'4/ 210 athlete, i have been playing basketball for 10 years and never have any problem with hormones. But one year ago i was training very intensive and i was advised to use testosterone enanthate 250mg/week for 2 months by my couch. This doses were very effective on me, i gained muscle, speed and was stronger than ever before. But then i suddenly cancel this cycle and expected for my own testosterone recovery. After cycle first 3-4 months were great, i saved my results. And only after half year i started to feel side effects , i had Depression, Anxiety, low libido, joints pain, low desire, high pressure, headaches. I thought that because of my age everything will be restored well, but it did not happened.

My analysis 2 month ago:

Testosterone,Free and Total 355 ng/dL (ref 348 - 1197)

Free Testosterone(Direct) 8.4 pg/mL (ref 9.3 - 26.5 )


LH 4.5 FSH 2.4 (ref 1.7 - 8.6/1.5 - 12.4 ) DHEA-Sulfate 381.8 (ref164.3 - 530.5)
Progesterone 0.7 (ref 0.2 - 1.4 )
Estrogens, Total 106 ( ref40 - 115)
Cholesterol, Total 214 mg/dl
cortisol 20.6 ( ref 2.3 - 19.4)
semen analysis normal


I was in a bad condition at this time,then My Doctor recommended me to take Clomid (clomephene citrate) for 2-3 weeks than make a rest, i took clomid, it was very effective for me 100 mg a day, i got my energy and desire back and when i cancel it i returned to my normal production and it is still not so good but better than before. Next week will do analysis again.

So my questions are:

1. Is Clomid safety for young males? And is it better to continue treatment?
2. Is it possible to fully recover my own production after testosterone abuse?
3. Do i need HCG in my case to stimulate my LH ?
4. My Doctor sad combination of Tamoxifen(nolvadex) +Proviron( mesterolone) Can be better in my case, what do you think?
5. Any advises how to behave for recovering well or nutritions in my case?
6. I know that it is no any official information how to treat steroid abuse patients, but what is the best strategy for it?

 

[Gene Devine]

Paul - Your "coach" should be locked up in a jail cell somewhere for his advise to you.

No 20 year old whose endocrine system is still developing should ever take hormones unless a medical necessity.

Your labs don't show you as being totally shut down but your Total and Free Testosterone are in the tank and the the reason is that it's being converted to Estrogen and why this lab is way way to high for any man let alone a 20 year old.

LH and FSH are in a range where you should be producing your own endogenous Testosterone but your aromatase synthesis is very high and why you feel like you do!

My suggestion is that you find a hormonal specialist who can work with you to get homeostasis back. These Physician's are the ones you see in anti aging clinics and TRT Clinics.

Nevertheless, you need to get things back in order for you to feel well and get healthy again.

Let me help with your questions:


1. Is Clomid safety for young males? And is it better to continue treatment?
A: It is safe when used for short duration's to get HPTA restarted. HCG may be used in advance of Clomid to get the testes restarted as well to make Clomid more effective.

2. Is it possible to fully recover my own production after testosterone abuse?
A: You may not like this answer but no you may not fully recover. The likelihood of a full recovery is good with the right and qualified Physician who is a specialist in this area. But you should know, sometimes HPTA may not fully recover.

3. Do i need HCG in my case to stimulate my LH ?
A: Yes, it can be used in advance of the Clomid therapy to get the testes functioning again.

4. My Doctor sad combination of Tamoxifen(nolvadex) +Proviron( mesterolone) Can be better in my case, what do you think?
A: It's possible and is an option.

5. Any advises how to behave for recovering well or nutritions in my case?
A: Just live clean during your HPTA restart therapy.

6. I know that it is no any official information how to treat steroid abuse patients, but what is the best strategy for it?
A: Find a qualified well trained Physician who can help you. Dr John Crisler at Defy Medical is just one man who is a specialist at this and can help you and your Doctor put you on a correct path for HPTA recovery and get homeostasis back. If you call Defy and ask to talk to Dr. Crisler he will tell you what he can do for you.

Now tell the police about your f'n coach!

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Paul

Welcome to the group. Here are a answers:

1. Is Clomid safety for young males? And is it better to continue treatment?

Yes. Some doctor use HCG first to see how your testicles are working before starting clomiphene plus or minus tamoxifen. In your case, the HCG challenge may not needed since you still have moderate testosterone production.

Getting Off Testosterone or Anabolics? You May Want to Read These PCT protocols


2. Is it possible to fully recover my own production after testosterone abuse?

There is a very high likelihood that your T may increase (your age, your current T, and your short term exposure to T treatment)

3. Do i need HCG in my case to stimulate my LH ?

Read 1 above and the info in the link. In my opinion, you may not. I will let other chime in. By the way, get your LH and FSH levels next time.


4. My Doctor sad combination of Tamoxifen(nolvadex) +Proviron( mesterolone)
Can be better in my case, what do you think?

That is a potential HPTA reset protocol. Can you get Proviron in your country?

5. Any advises how to behave for recovering well or nutritions in my case?

Sleep quality is the number one factor in preserving/increasing T levels. Weight loss is second (this is not your issue). Avoiding low fat diets is also important. Even taking ED drugs has been shown to be good for naturally increasing T levels, so I think it may not be a bad idea to use them while going through a PCT / HPTA reset protocol.



6. I know that it is no any official information how to treat steroid abuse patients, but what is the best strategy for it?

Read all the info in the link provided above. It covers several protocols. Dr Scally's is a well known one.

How to Stop Testosterone Safely and Possibly Reset Your Hormonal Axis

 

[Paul_Martin]

Paul - Your "coach" should be locked up in a jail cell somewhere for his advise to you.

2. Is it possible to fully recover my own production after testosterone abuse?
A: You may not like this answer but no you may not fully recover. The likelihood of a full recovery is good with the right and qualified Physician who is a specialist in this area. But you should know, sometimes HPTA may not fully recover.

Hallo Gene Devine! thank you for your clear response, i hope i will recover naturally, in the worst case, how i understood, I'll sit on TRT for life.

 

[Paul_Martin]

4. My Doctor sad combination of Tamoxifen(nolvadex) +Proviron( mesterolone)
Can be better in my case, what do you think?

That is a potential HPTA reset protocol. Can you get Proviron in your country?

I moved in LA from Russia couple months ago and will stay here. For these kind of drugs i need prescription, i went to my local doctor in Pasadena, but he apparently not specialized in my problem and recommended me just to wait and retest testosterone again.

 

[Gene Devine]

I moved in LA from Russia couple months ago and will stay here. For these kind of drugs i need prescription, i went to my local doctor in Pasadena, but he apparently not specialized in my problem and recommended me just to wait and retest testosterone again.

HPTA won't restart on it's own; you need a PCT (Post Cycle Therapy) Protocol for that to happen.

Find the right Doctor Paul.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I disagree. HPTA can normalize on its own in young men. It can take time and it is not a fun time to wait.


In this sample of 59/4,400 men using TRT presenting with infertility, close to 2/3 recovered spermatogenesis within 6 months of T discontinuation.


Samplaski MK, Loai Y, Wong K, Lo KC, Grober ED, Jarvi KA. Testosterone use in the male infertility population: prescribing patterns and effects on semen and hormonal parameters. Fertil Steril. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...15028213030537

 

[Gene Devine]

I disagree. HPTA can normalize on its own in young men. It can take time and it is not a fun time to wait.


In this sample of 59/4,400 men using TRT presenting with infertility, close to 2/3 recovered spermatogenesis within 6 months of T discontinuation.


Samplaski MK, Loai Y, Wong K, Lo KC, Grober ED, Jarvi KA. Testosterone use in the male infertility population: prescribing patterns and effects on semen and hormonal parameters. Fertil Steril. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...15028213030537

^^^^And what happened to the more than 1/3 of men who didn't recover???

Not sure I want to play those odds.

A smart and well planned PCT will get most men restarted right quick with none of the downsides of waiting for it to happen on it's own....if it even does.

Too each his own I guess...but not me.

 

[Paul_Martin]

Hallo again guys!

I got my blood analysis test after PCT(Proviron 50mg + Tamoxifen 20mg) for 25 days. My general physical quality improved very little, i think that drugs are not that effective in this doses for my age.
I upload my blood test, you can download and check.

And i have a question about my PCT and Analysis:

1. Is it better to stop using Proviron?, because how i understand, it is an androgen steroid and it can prevent my own endogen test increasing.

2. My Estrogens kind of high, is it ok? I know that it disturb creating more testosterone what i need, so is it good idea to take anti estrogents more, like Clomid or Tamox or somethings else?

3. Is it Ok that my cholesterol is hight?(LDL) and what i can do to reduce it?

I planing to quit from proviron with tamox and continue just using Clomid for long period, any thoughts on this? i think in my case it has to help.

Thanks!

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Paul

Your numbers do not look that bad.

For lowering LDL just decrease sweets, do more cardio, and eat more fiber. It is not that far off.

Your estradiol is fine. Do not mess with it.

Clomid monotherapy may work. Here is another protocol used in a study:

 

[Paul_Martin]

Went to my Doctor he prescribed me Clomid 50-100mg a day for 1-2 months. He sad it is the best way to recover my own LH and Test safely. It is my second week off Clomid, my dose 100 mg a day, i still do not feel any effects of it.

Does it mean that my own LH does not work and this is a second hypogonadism?
Also i have a question: For how long it is better to try to recover own testosterone before TRT that would be clear that your own Axis does not work well?

 

[Gene Devine]

Went to my Doctor he prescribed me Clomid 50-100mg a day for 1-2 months. He sad it is the best way to recover my own LH and Test safely. It is my second week off Clomid, my dose 100 mg a day, i still do not feel any effects of it.

Does it mean that my own LH does not work and this is a second hypogonadism?
Also i have a question: For how long it is better to try to recover own testosterone before TRT that would be clear that your own Axis does not work well?

Give it some time, you're only two weeks into your restart with Clomid...takes more time then that...patience.

Wait till your 2 months are over and your Doc will test you...relax.

Eat clean, take the best multi vitamin and mineral supplement money can buy and don't do drugs or alcohol during your restart.

Post results when you get them.

 

[Paul_Martin]

Hallo everyone again.

After i finished my clomid course my results were good (high normal test range):

Testosterone,Free and Total 1140 ng/dL (normal)348 - 1197

Free Testosterone(Direct) 30.9 (normal) 9.3 - 26.5
LH 18.0FSH 5.7

But physically i still suffer of muscle weakness and joints problem. My Doc thinks it is not testosterone problem now, because my hormones are normal and my libido is good. Therefore, it can be something wrong with my others glands that cause hormone deficiency. All my hormones are basically fine, except High Cortisol. I am came off everything and still feel the same, do not know what to do.

My question to you guys:

have someone felt physically bad even after cured normal testosterone?

And what glands do you think most likely can be damage and it is better to test it?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Good to know your values and sex drive/ED have improved.

Have your doctor check your CPK blood level.

CPK is creatine phosphokinase, an enzyme found mainly in the heart, brain, and skeletal muscle. It is tested by taking a blood sample.
High CPK can indicate muscle destruction, heart attacks, central nervous sysmtem issues, and others. Long term exposure of high CPK can load up your kidneys, and may cause muscle loss and weakness.


A CPK blood test is usually not included in the usual lab work unless you ask for it. Sometimes we have no symptoms when CPK is high, but most of the time we have body aches and soreness. CPK can increase with exercise, but if you exercise frequently and you have baseline CPK info, you can tell what may be drug induced after you start a certain medication.


To make sure your high CPK is not induced by heavy exercise, do not exercise for 5 days and have another test done after that.


Low thyroid function can also be a cause of high CPK, so get it checked.


There is no treatment.


Some doctors prescribe corticoid steroids to reduce whatever the inflammation may be, but this is not a cure. Corticoid steroids can lower bone density, cause water retention and fat gain, and have been linked with joint bone death (necrosis), so they are not a good option to stay on for the long term.


If you are taking statins with or without fibrates, high CPK may indicate muscle related problems that these drugs can cause in some people. Statins (with or without fibrates) can cause rhabdomyolysis which can cause dustruction of muscle tissue in few patients and increase CPK. Some patients have anecdotally reported improvements of this problem by taking Coenzyme Q-10 (statins lower it) and a good antioxidant formula with magnesium.

 

[Paul_Martin]

Good to know your values and sex drive/ED have improved.

Have your doctor check your CPK blood level.

CPK is creatine phosphokinase, an enzyme found mainly in the heart, brain, and skeletal muscle. It is tested by taking a blood sample.
High CPK can indicate muscle destruction, heart attacks, central nervous sysmtem issues, and others. Long term exposure of high CPK can load up your kidneys, and may cause muscle loss and weakness.

Thanks a lot Nelson, I have not tried to test this CPK test, but i will do it as soon as i can, these symptoms what you described are very fit to me. Let you know later about my results, hope is not that bad.

 

[Paul_Martin]

Hallo guys, my new update after hard time of treatments and suffering. I have checked CPK and other more lab tests, general seems fine, but the problem which i have is high Cortisol (hypercorticism) but endocrinologist sad it's functional and not like cushing's disease, i hope it lower on it's own.

Recently i have done DEXA done test, because of my pain in all joints and weakness. And my suspicions were true, i have osteopenia with bone density like 85 year old man. Its good that i noticed it before my bones break, and now i have to figure out the best treatment option for me.

Questions guys:

- Can potentially TT, Clomid or HCG cause osteopenia in my 20 years old?

- What do you think can help in my case( bisphosphonates, steroids, vitamins)?

 

[Paul_Martin]

Update.

Anyone is here? Seems, only you can help yourself.

Half a year has passed since my treatment, first Clomid then HCG. Now i continue to use HCG again because it's no physical improvement and no energy despite the fact that my own Testosterone in good high normal range. No problems with libido and morning wood, but still no physical energy to live normally. Now i guess it's very likely that my HPTA could be damaged by inaccurate steroid abuse when i was 19yo. In my twenty years old i I feel like crap, never expect this year will be the worst in my life. I checked other possible causes which could cause my symptoms and luckily i don't have anything neurological, thyroid is fine, no infection and viruses, even structural brain MRI is fine. Doctors in my country very conservative that never use Clomid for hypogonadal men. Hopefully, i could find a lot of useful information here to help myself, but it goes harder. Obviously it's endocrinological changes.

It's not a lot of information about young guys steroid abuse hypogonadism. Could be these changes are irreversible???

Is it worth a try TRT in my 20 ???, in my opinion it's better to be castrated and live a full healthy life.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

It would be nice to see your blood work.
To a minimum, hematocrit , LH and FSH. ( if you are off HCG monotherapy), Testosterone free and total, estradiol, free T4 and free T3.
I am assuming you sleep well and on reasonable hours and thar you don't have sleep apnea or depression.

Have you read the information we have in the Prevent Side Effecf folder about using testosterone in combination with HCG? Of course, I am saying this assuming that you are in fact hypogonadal and that your HPTA never recovered after anabolic steroid use.

TRT plus HCG can you make you "not castrated" while using testosterone.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I just saw your original postabout your bones. Sorry. Glad you posted again to get attention.

I bet your osteopenia was caused by low T and low estradiol along with low vitamin D. You are really young and usually that is when our bones should be the strongest. High cortisol can also increase bone loss.

Bringing your T, E2 and vitamin D levels up to top quartile of normal range plus good calcium intake can reverse your bone density loss. Working out with weights also increases bone density. Sleeping well plus stress reduction decreases cortisol.

Fosamax and other bone promoting drugs may also not be a bad thing to do during the first year. Bone density increases very slowly even under perfect conditions and a combination approach may work better.

 

[Vince]

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You need protein to build strong bones, but when you eat too much protein, your body produces chemicals called sulfates that can cause calcium to leach out of the bones. This effect on bones is more likely to occur with animal protein than vegetable protein. In the recent Nurses Health Study II, conducted by Harvard Medical School, 116,686 women were followed for 10 years. The researchers found that women who ate red meat at least five times a week were more likely to have a bone fracture than women who ate red meat only once a week.
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Alcohol. Excessive drinking of alcoholic beverages is also associated with lower bone density because alcohol interferes with the absorption of calcium and vitamin D. To lower your risk for osteoporosis, limit your intake of alcohol to one drink a day.
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“A diet low in fruits and vegetables and high in animal protein and carbohydrates, will tend to result in mild acidosis which, over time, can contribute to significant bone loss,” says Cuthrell. “Neutralizing an acid-producing diet, which can be done by eating fruits and vegetables, may be an important key to reducing bone loss while aging.”
Eating a well-balanced diet can be tricky when you are trying to keep your bones healthy. However, getting the recommended amount of calcium each day to offset any loss of calcium caused by any other foods you eat will go along way to preventing bone loss. http://www.everydayhealth.com/diet-...hy-eating/foods-that-reduce-bone-density.aspx