Hpta recovery unsuccessful

[goolapsh]

I was on trt then got off and recovered successfully with clomid after four months. I then made the decision to get back on trt after I had fully recovered. It has been six months now and I can tell I’m still low t, and I’ve been struggling with the idea of getting on trt permanently but I really didn’t want to at this point in my life (I kind of wanted to be done with it). I did have some positives and negatives with treatment. My levels were 350-400 range with 20 shbg so I was pretty normal for my age at 39. I’m not sure what to do at this point because Enclomiphene is not working for me this time around. I can’t sleep and struggling mentally. I’m having my new levels tested today. My main hang ups about trt are the shortening of life span and some other unknown health issues that may arise over years of continued use. Can anyone give me advice and how to reboot my hpta if clomid isn’t working this time around? Not sure who to talk to or where to go at this point. Should I just bite the bullet and go back on trt for life? The benefits specifically have been an elimination of my back pain, libido, muscle and energy. The downsides were hairloss, body hair, depression still remained, and I think I was using it as a crutch initially to get through life. If I stop I know I’m gonna miss the workout benefits and libido. Don’t know what to do lol.

 

[goolapsh]

I was on trt then got off and recovered successfully with clomid after four months. I then made the decision to get back on trt after I had fully recovered. It has been six months now and I can tell I’m still low t, and I’ve been struggling with the idea of getting on trt permanently but I really didn’t want to at this point in my life (I kind of wanted to be done with it). I did have some positives and negatives with treatment. My levels were 350-400 range with 20 shbg so I was pretty normal for my age at 39. I’m not sure what to do at this point because Enclomiphene is not working for me this time around. I can’t sleep and struggling mentally. I’m having my new levels tested today. My main hang ups about trt are the shortening of life span and some other unknown health issues that may arise over years of continued use. Can anyone give me advice and how to reboot my hpta if clomid isn’t working this time around? Not sure who to talk to or where to go at this point.

Is there a reason why Enclomiphene isn’t working this time? I’ve taken 12.5mg and 25mg on different attempts.

 

[Cataceous]

You might at least give Natesto or a generic version a try. You get more testosterone while your HPTA keeps functioning. It sounds like the delivery system isn't the most pleasant, but for good results it would be worth it.

You could investigate why your numbers aren't better with enclomiphene. If you don't get upper range LH with higher doses then the problem is upstream, at the pituitary or hypothalamus. Otherwise you could be developing testicular insufficiency, which is less common.

 

[Systemlord]

My main hang ups about trt are the shortening of life span

The long term data shows only benefit, so I don't know where you're getting the idea that TRT shortens your lifespan.

The data shows that low-T leads to a shorter lifespan and a low quality of life.

You might have to accept that the fact that your pituitary gland won't ever function optimally again.

In my opinion this idea that you can "reboot" or turn back the clock and regain opimal pituitary functionality at 39 and high youthful testosterone isn't reality.

 

[goolapsh]

The long term data shows only benefit, so I don't know where you're getting the idea that TRT shortens your lifespan.

The data shows that low-T leads to a shorter lifespan and a low quality of life.

You might have to accept that the fact that your pituitary gland won't ever function optimally again.

In my opinion this idea that you can "reboot" or turn back the clock and regain opimal pituitary functionality at 39 and high youthful testosterone isn't reality.

I appreciate your response. I am open to going back on but after being on trt off and on for 2.5 years, I am thinking of just trying natural route for awhile. I keep seeing the amount of middle age men who aren’t on anything and doing fine and going about their lives. Actually I got my bloods back and it looks like my thyroid is still not recovered from the dose of synthroid the doctor put me on. So I think that’s what my issue is. It’s just weird that six months have passed and I still feel like shit. The doctor this past go around really gave me hefty doses of both test and synthroid so I’m guessing that’s why I’m not recovering well. I will probably give it a few more months. Maybe I’m in denial but I’m not sure I really needed all this to begin with. I technically didn’t have low t at 375-400 free 81 pg/ml. Also there have been studies of testosterone decreasing telomerase activity (decreasing length of telomeres) which speeds up the aging process. There really is a trade off. Also there aren’t any long term studies on trt. There’s lots of things still in question, cardiac, kidney, prostate health etc. elevating igf-1 for the long haul is what’s really making me concerned considering that’s what’s responsible for age related diseases. Everyone thought that giving estrogen to post menopausal women was safe and the new standard of care. Look where that went.

 

[Systemlord]

Maybe I’m in denial but I’m not sure I really needed all this to begin with.

The benefits specifically have been an elimination of my back pain, libido, muscle and energy.

It's denial and a refusal to accept reality. There is long term studies showing TRT is safe. Heart failure patients show remarkably improved heart function on TRT consistently over the last 20 years.

 

[tareload]

I appreciate your response. I am open to going back on but after being on trt off and on for 2.5 years, I am thinking of just trying natural route for awhile. I keep seeing the amount of middle age men who aren’t on anything and doing fine and going about their lives. Actually I got my bloods back and it looks like my thyroid is still not recovered from the dose of synthroid the doctor put me on. So I think that’s what my issue is. It’s just weird that six months have passed and I still feel like shit. The doctor this past go around really gave me hefty doses of both test and synthroid so I’m guessing that’s why I’m not recovering well. I will probably give it a few more months. Maybe I’m in denial but I’m not sure I really needed all this to begin with. I technically didn’t have low t at 375-400 free 81 pg/ml. Also there have been studies of testosterone decreasing telomerase activity (decreasing length of telomeres) which speeds up the aging process. There really is a trade off. Also there aren’t any long term studies on trt. There’s lots of things still in question, cardiac, kidney, prostate health etc. elevating igf-1 for the long haul is what’s really making me concerned considering that’s what’s responsible for age related diseases. Everyone thought that giving estrogen to post menopausal women was safe and the new standard of care. Look where that went.

There should be an option to give this post 10 thumbs up. It takes a higher level thinker to hold all these potentially conflicting data in the head all at one time. Also there's such an individual response WRT the tradeoff.

 

[Vince]

I appreciate your response. I am open to going back on but after being on trt off and on for 2.5 years, I am thinking of just trying natural route for awhile. I keep seeing the amount of middle age men who aren’t on anything and doing fine and going about their lives. Actually I got my bloods back and it looks like my thyroid is still not recovered from the dose of synthroid the doctor put me on. So I think that’s what my issue is. It’s just weird that six months have passed and I still feel like shit. The doctor this past go around really gave me hefty doses of both test and synthroid so I’m guessing that’s why I’m not recovering well. I will probably give it a few more months. Maybe I’m in denial but I’m not sure I really needed all this to begin with. I technically didn’t have low t at 375-400 free 81 pg/ml. Also there have been studies of testosterone decreasing telomerase activity (decreasing length of telomeres) which speeds up the aging process. There really is a trade off. Also there aren’t any long term studies on trt. There’s lots of things still in question, cardiac, kidney, prostate health etc. elevating igf-1 for the long haul is what’s really making me concerned considering that’s what’s responsible for age related diseases. Everyone thought that giving estrogen to post menopausal women was safe and the new standard of care. Look where that went.

You should add in some liothyronine T3. T4 by it self, usually isn't good enough.

 

[goolapsh]

You should add in some liothyronine T3. T4 by it self, usually isn't good enough.

Thanks but I think you’re missing the point. The doctor who prescribed me t wound up overdosing me which screwed up my thyroid. Instead of lowering my t dose he prescribed me synthroid (which he also overdosed me on according to my labs). My tsh is currently a little high from my normative value, and I just started taking a small synthroid dose25mg which I will ween off of as time goes on and my body revs up its own production. I’m still so frustrated and pissed at this doctor, and he seems to be a fan favorite on this website, but I digress.

 

[Vince]

Thanks but I think you’re missing the point. The doctor who prescribed me t wound up overdosing me which screwed up my thyroid. Instead of lowering my t dose he prescribed me synthroid (which he also overdosed me on according to my labs). My tsh is currently a little high from my normative value, and I just started taking a small synthroid dose25mg which I will ween off of as time goes on and my body revs up its own production. I’m still so frustrated and pissed at this doctor, and he seems to be a fan favorite on this website, but I digress.

Before starting your thyroid meds, did you have a complete thyroid panel? Tsh, free t3, free t4, reversed t3 and both antibodies?

 

[goolapsh]

Before starting your thyroid meds, did you have a complete thyroid panel? Tsh, free t3, free t4, reversed t3 and both antibodies?

Yes I did. Everything was normal. Tsh was always between 1 and 2 before starting therapy. Never experienced hypo symptoms in my life. When I was placed on synthroid by this doctor my tsh was above 3 because of the high levels of test he had me on (and this was the first time I felt hypo but didn’t know at the time what to attribute the symptoms to until I had blood work confirming it). So he prescribed me synthroid. The dose was way too much because I remember feeling like complete shit so I reduced the dose on my own and the symptoms resolved. I had my tsh levels tested the following week after starting on the dose he prescribed, and my tsh was 0.3 with all my other thyroid markers in the red (hence why I felt like shit). Since stopping therapy I’ve taken several blood tests and I’ve seen a slow and steady rise in tsh which is expected, but now it’s approaching the 3 range again and I’m having hypo symptoms (waking up feeling chills, labored breathing, low energy, insomnia, etc.). I know it’s my thyroid now causing me these issues because since taking a small synthroid dose five days ago my symptoms are improving (it’s similar to the symptoms i had before) . Just goes to show though that both thyroid (to an extent but not the same as t) and test get shut down when supplementing. It was a nightmare of a protocol obviously and I’m still recovering six months later. If I decide to resume therapy I will learn from this obviously and stick to much smaller doses and choose a doctor who’s more conservative (and knowledgeable).

 

[Vince]

Yes I did. Everything was normal. Tsh was always between 1 and 2 before starting therapy. Never experienced hypo symptoms in my life. When I was placed on synthroid by this doctor my tsh was above 3 because of the high levels of test he had me on (and this was the first time I felt hypo but didn’t know at the time what to attribute the symptoms to until I had blood work confirming it). So he prescribed me synthroid. The dose was way too much because I remember feeling like complete shit so I reduced the dose on my own and the symptoms resolved. I had my tsh levels tested the following week after starting on the dose he prescribed, and my tsh was 0.3 with all my other thyroid markers in the red (hence why I felt like shit). Since stopping therapy I’ve taken several blood tests and I’ve seen a slow and steady rise in tsh which is expected, but now it’s approaching the 3 range again and I’m having hypo symptoms (waking up feeling chills, labored breathing, low energy, insomnia, etc.). I know it’s my thyroid now causing me these issues because since taking a small synthroid dose five days ago my symptoms are improving (it’s similar to the symptoms i had before) . Just goes to show though that both thyroid (to an extent but not the same as t) and test get shut down when supplementing. It was a nightmare of a protocol obviously and I’m still recovering six months later. If I decide to resume therapy I will learn from this obviously and stick to much smaller doses and choose a doctor who’s more conservative (and knowledgeable).

Can you post your pretreatment thyroid labs?

 

[madman]

Yes I did. Everything was normal. Tsh was always between 1 and 2 before starting therapy. Never experienced hypo symptoms in my life. When I was placed on synthroid by this doctor my tsh was above 3 because of the high levels of test he had me on (and this was the first time I felt hypo but didn’t know at the time what to attribute the symptoms to until I had blood work confirming it). So he prescribed me synthroid. The dose was way too much because I remember feeling like complete shit so I reduced the dose on my own and the symptoms resolved. I had my tsh levels tested the following week after starting on the dose he prescribed, and my tsh was 0.3 with all my other thyroid markers in the red (hence why I felt like shit). Since stopping therapy I’ve taken several blood tests and I’ve seen a slow and steady rise in tsh which is expected, but now it’s approaching the 3 range again and I’m having hypo symptoms (waking up feeling chills, labored breathing, low energy, insomnia, etc.). I know it’s my thyroid now causing me these issues because since taking a small synthroid dose five days ago my symptoms are improving (it’s similar to the symptoms i had before) . Just goes to show though that both thyroid (to an extent but not the same as t) and test get shut down when supplementing. It was a nightmare of a protocol obviously and I’m still recovering six months later. If I decide to resume therapy I will learn from this obviously and stick to much smaller doses and choose a doctor who’s more conservative (and knowledgeable).

When it comes to thyroid meds, AIs let alone testosterone you should have known this as you have been on the forum since 2018.

For many years we have been stressing the point that many are overmedicated when it comes to testosterone therapy.

Too many caught up on that neanderthal mindset you know that more T is better mentality.

Unfortunately many are jacked up on T from the get-go let alone many are also dick riding that so-called OPTIMAL bull****!

Too many get caught up in expecting to feel great 24/7 once on trt as if testosterone is going to cure all that ails them.

So much misinformation spewed on the numerous forums/gootube let alone some of those knumbskulls that LURK on here!

*neanderthal mindset that more T is better

*high T = raging libido/titanium erections

*high T = OPTIMAL as in that fairytale everyone is chasing.....you know the one with raging libido/titanium erections 24/7, unlimited amounts of energy, stellar mood (Mr. Rogers neighborhood), packing on muscle like the hulk with the recovery abilities of wolverine.....LMFAO.


Complete S**T SHOW to say the least!

 

[goolapsh]

When it comes to thyroid meds, AIs let alone testosterone you should have known this as you have been on the forum since 2018.

For many years we have been stressing the point that many are overmedicated when it comes to testosterone therapy.

Too many caught up on that neanderthal mindset you know that more T is better mentality.

Unfortunately many are jacked up on T from the get-go let alone many are also dick riding that so-called OPTIMAL bull****!

Too many get caught up in expecting to feel great 24/7 once on trt as if testosterone is going to cure all that ails them.

So much misinformation spewed on the numerous forums/gootube let alone some of those knumbskulls that LURK on here!

*neanderthal mindset that more T is better

*high T = raging libido/titanium erections

*high T = OPTIMAL as in that fairytale everyone is chasing.....you know the one with raging libido/titanium erections 24/7, unlimited amounts of energy, stellar mood (Mr. Rogers neighborhood), packing on muscle like the hulk with the recovery abilities of wolverine.....LMFAO.


Complete S**T SHOW to say the least!

You know, trt has been so difficult for me. It all started when I found out I was a poor converter to dht on cypionate injections. (I had below reference range dht, and even on 150mg cypionate per week, my dht was below the reference range. My natural levels of dht are right in the middle of the reference range, so it’s how my body was processing the ester. The scrotal creams worked but it was dht overkill and so I thought combining the two would be the solution, and boy was that a mistake, or maybe I just couldn’t get the combination correct. I relied on the doctors opinion since he was the so called “expert.” I will never do that again with any doctor I work with. So trt has not been easy for me like it is for some. It’s not as simple as “avoid large doses” for me, since one method gives me too much dht and one method doesn’t give me any.

 

[Systemlord]

My natural levels of dht are right in the middle of the reference range, so it’s how my body was processing the ester. The scrotal creams worked but it was dht overkill

Jatenzo is the second highest in DHT conversion, higher Free T than topicals, higher DHT versus injections.

 

[goolapsh]

Jatenzo is the second highest in DHT conversion, higher Free T than topicals, higher DHT versus injections.

I wish my insurance covered it. That’s the only catch.

 

[goolapsh]

Okay guys. I know I’ve been a pita on these forums and probably Nelson will fire me soon. I got my labs back after being off Enclomiphene. My lh is barely alive at 1.8. I have yet to get t levels back but I’m assuming they’re low because I feel low t symptoms. This is after a few cycles of Enclomiphene over the past six months. I’m willing to give it more time to rebound, as I don’t want to be on trt anymore (mostly my friends are making me think this but also it hasn’t been easy find a method that I’m completely happy with). The first time I got off I had no trouble rebounding, but now I’m not coming back online. I’m 39 if that makes a difference. What should I do? I guess my next approach is 25mg Enclomiphene daily for four weeks and try again? My normal levels are high 300s with free test of 81pg/ml (35-155). I guess at age 40 my friends keep telling me I was too young to do this. And all my doctors friends are saying it causes cancer and long term problems. So they all want to see me come off of it. One of my doctor friends said that it should only be prescribed for erectile dysfunction (which I didn’t have prior to starting) and then he started going on about long term health and cancer cancer cancer (I got tired of hearing that word as all three of my physician friends said that word). I wish I could’ve gotten the injections to work for me as I’m a poor dht converter, so I settled with the less than ideal scrotal cream (hair loss) which now looks like I’ll have to get back on. I know this is my fault for self experimenting. I’d be more willing to stay on if I wasn’t getting so much backlash from my medical colleagues and friends (and if I could find a method of injections that work for me). The forces are against us. Someone Help me pleeeeease.

 

[Systemlord]

And all my doctors friends are saying it causes cancer and long term problems.

Ask them to back up their claims with evidence, like a study showing TRT causes cancer.

I can tell you they will be unable to do so. Your medical colleagues are ignorant. I have tried to reason with you, I have counted every argument about safety by providing countless studies showing TRT is safe.

The question becomes are you going to suffer for YEARS before you realize your medical colleagues ignorant and aren't as educated as they should be regarding TRT safety?

I personally wouldn't give a sh** about what my colleagues and friends think about me being on TRT, I'm doing this for my health and quality of life.

 

[Vince]

This study reported that men who received testosterone therapy were subsequently diagnosed with aggressive prostate cancer at the rate of 0.58 per 1,000 person years. Among untreated men (n = 88,976) the incidence rate was nearly identical: 0.57 per 1,000 person years.

Study: Testosterone therapy does not raise prostate cancer risk - UW Medicine | Newsroom

Review of nearly 150,000 patient cases provides strong evidence, says UW Medicine urologist who led research.

newsroom.uw.edu

 

[goolapsh]

This study reported that men who received testosterone therapy were subsequently diagnosed with aggressive prostate cancer at the rate of 0.58 per 1,000 person years. Among untreated men (n = 88,976) the incidence rate was nearly identical: 0.57 per 1,000 person years.

Study: Testosterone therapy does not raise prostate cancer risk - UW Medicine | Newsroom

Review of nearly 150,000 patient cases provides strong evidence, says UW Medicine urologist who led research.

newsroom.uw.edu

Why is the medical community still stuck on it causing cancer? I for the life of me don’t understand and it’s not like they don’t keep up with the literature. One of my buddies graduated from top 10 medical school and insists i will pay the price later on. And when I mentioned studies to him, he also said that as far as studies go, for every study that proves something there will be another study to disprove it. The other guy is an actual oncologist and the very first thing he said was cancer. And then my other physician friend kept saying it’s only for people with erectile dysfunction, otherwise the risks outweigh the benefits. I have yet to have a doctor tell me outside of a trt clinic that it’s perfectly fine for me to take trt at levels above 300. This can be very frustrating for any patient to get mixed opinions about this. Couple this with the fact that I see overweight trt clinic doctors prescribing this stuff and telling us how good it is for our health. Obviously I have to draw the line at some point but if I can get back to my original levels I probably will not get back on until there is complete consensus. I’m sure many of you think I’m crazy and I probably am (as well as ocd), so I apologize to everyone on this forum for expressing myself in such a manner