Help with testosterone types

[cman245]

I will try to make a long story short for everyone's convenience. I've been on TRT for about 5 years. Before starting TRT my level was 1.3 ng/ml. After a few months of trial and error the doctor and I finally agreed that a dosage of 1.5ml of 200 mg/ml testosterone cypionate per week, worked the best for me and that's where I stayed for 4 1/2 years with regular blood tests and Dr. exams to keep and eye on everything. 6 months ago I moved outside of the US and have had a hard time finding a doctor and legitimate source of testosterone after my US supply ran out. So far I have kept things going though a reputable Dr., lab and pharmacy. The first Dr. said the only testosterone available was Aveed. The price is higher than in England but cheaper than the US. After about 2 weeks I noticed that I was tired all the time and my libido was down again. Seeing as how this was supposed to last 2-3 months per shot, I wasn't sure what to think at first. A trip to the lab showed my testosterone at 2.5 ng/ml and my estradiol at 67 pg/ml. Not wanting to spend another fairly large sum of money on something that didn't seem to work for me, I changed doctors. This doctor claimed that Aveed and Sustnon 250 are the only approved types of testosterone for sale in this county. I took one shot of Sustnon 250 at the doctors office and a follow up shot at 1 week instead of the 2 weeks that the Dr. recommended because I was still feeling terrible. Another week has passed and I still don't feel any better. 0 improvement. I had assumed that since there were some fast acting esters in Suston that I would at least see some improvement after 2 doses. I visited the lab today and should my results back tomorrow but I wanted to go ahead and start this thread. I have a pretty good feeling that my labs will be off. I took the time to speak with a couple of pharmacy managers and the story that doctors told about Aveed and Sustnon seem to be the truth. Any other type of testosterone is black market here. There are plenty of types available on that market but I really didn't want to go down that road but I am starting to feel boxed in by the lack of a legit product that will work for me. Does this problem sound familiar? Is is common to respond to one type of testosterone very well but not respond well to others? I always thought test was test. I will post my new lab results tomorrow but I am interested in any opinions in the mean time. Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[DragonBits]

I will try to make a long story short for everyone's convenience. I've been on TRT for about 5 years. Before starting TRT my level was 1.3 ng/ml. After a few months of trial and error the doctor and I finally agreed that a dosage of 1.5ml of 200 mg/ml testosterone cypionate per week, worked the best for me and that's where I stayed for 4 1/2 years with regular blood tests and Dr. exams to keep and eye on everything. 6 months ago I moved outside of the US and have had a hard time finding a doctor and legitimate source of testosterone after my US supply ran out. So far I have kept things going though a reputable Dr., lab and pharmacy. The first Dr. said the only testosterone available was Aveed. The price is higher than in England but cheaper than the US. After about 2 weeks I noticed that I was tired all the time and my libido was down again. Seeing as how this was supposed to last 2-3 months per shot, I wasn't sure what to think at first. A trip to the lab showed my testosterone at 2.5 ng/ml and my estradiol at 67 pg/ml. Not wanting to spend another fairly large sum of money on something that didn't seem to work for me, I changed doctors. This doctor claimed that Aveed and Sustnon 250 are the only approved types of testosterone for sale in this county. I took one shot of Sustnon 250 at the doctors office and a follow up shot at 1 week instead of the 2 weeks that the Dr. recommended because I was still feeling terrible. Another week has passed and I still don't feel any better. 0 improvement. I had assumed that since there were some fast acting esters in Suston that I would at least see some improvement after 2 doses. I visited the lab today and should my results back tomorrow but I wanted to go ahead and start this thread. I have a pretty good feeling that my labs will be off. I took the time to speak with a couple of pharmacy managers and the story that doctors told about Aveed and Sustnon seem to be the truth. Any other type of testosterone is black market here. There are plenty of types available on that market but I really didn't want to go down that road but I am starting to feel boxed in by the lack of a legit product that will work for me. Does this problem sound familiar? Is is common to respond to one type of testosterone very well but not respond well to others? I always thought test was test. I will post my new lab results tomorrow but I am interested in any opinions in the mean time. Thanks in advance for any help.

Different testosterone esters will release T at different rates necessitating a different protocol to get the same effects.

You probably didn't test SHBG, which has a big effect on Free T available. It could also be that SHBG changed or your percent Free T changed for some other reason, you did change your diet when you changed countries. And it maybe something else entirely different making you feel "terrible". You spent several months in the US adjusting amounts, when changing esters you will likely also have to spend some time getting it "right".

My random thoughts on a post without enough details (labs) and a lot of changes in your diet/T ester and country.

 

[cman245]

Different testosterone esters will release T at different rates necessitating a different protocol to get the same effects.

You probably didn't test SHBG, which has a big effect on Free T available. It could also be that SHBG changed or your percent Free T changed for some other reason, you did change your diet when you changed countries. And it maybe something else entirely different making you feel "terrible". You spent several months in the US adjusting amounts, when changing esters you will likely also have to spend some time getting it "right".

My random thoughts on a post without enough details (labs) and a lot of changes in your diet/T ester and country.

Thanks for your insight so far. One of the unfortunate things about testing in my current location is what they offer. Basic Testosterone is all that is available so I am basically flying blind on testing compared to other locations. My diet is different but should be considered improved (for what it's worth). I was using the US supply of cypionate here for 3 months or so with no change in feeling, so I attributed the decline in my feeling and energy only to the ester change (which may be flawed thinking). The times that I feel "terrible" my testosterone is at or below 2.5 ng/ml. Before my testosterone stayed in the 7-8 ng/ml range and I felt fine. It's obviously not as simple as I thought it would be. I had no idea that just changing esters could be so difficult.

 

[Tremonti22]

I have found that my body likes enanthate much better than cypionate, so yes different esters can produce different feelings. Find what works best for you & roll with it

 

[Tremonti22]

Also do they not have enanthate over there? I would think they do.

 

[Systemlord]

There are a lot of guys who don't feel well on long acting esters which is likely tied to the rate at which your body uses up testosterone.

I metabolize testosterone quickly as my body is a glutton when it comes to testosterone, Nebido/Aveed wouldn't work well for me. Sustanon is the better of the two options, try 150mg once weekly.

 

[DragonBits]

Thanks for your insight so far. One of the unfortunate things about testing in my current location is what they offer. Basic Testosterone is all that is available so I am basically flying blind on testing compared to other locations. My diet is different but should be considered improved (for what it's worth). I was using the US supply of cypionate here for 3 months or so with no change in feeling, so I attributed the decline in my feeling and energy only to the ester change (which may be flawed thinking). The times that I feel "terrible" my testosterone is at or below 2.5 ng/ml. Before my testosterone stayed in the 7-8 ng/ml range and I felt fine. It's obviously not as simple as I thought it would be. I had no idea that just changing esters could be so difficult.

Just as an example, I had been taking LEF ultra prostate formula with the same testosterone protocol.

The supplement lowered my FT, E2, and DHT by around 40%. How? It raised my SHBG from 42>66, but it appears my total T didn't change much at all.

So why you say 2.5 ng/ml, I am assuming you are talking Free T? A lot of things can affect the amount of free T. But this level really seems too low for someone on any kind of TRT. Assuming it means the same thing as it would in a USA lab report.

Which raises another confounding factor, you are using a totally different lab service. Maybe post total T, FT and the ranges you have for them. (if available)

 

[Cataceous]

... Sustanon is the better of the two options, try 150mg once weekly.

^^^This. Sustanon has about the same testosterone content as cypionate. However, the decanoate ester has a longer half-life, maybe two weeks. This means it could take over two months for your serum levels to stabilize. You'll need to be patient.

 

[cman245]

Also do they not have enanthate over there? I would think they do.

The only approved and available though a pharmacy testosterone formulas are Aveed and Sustanon. Everything else is black market only, easily available and no one really seems to care but still black market.

 

[cman245]

Just as an example, I had been taking LEF ultra prostate formula with the same testosterone protocol.

The supplement lowered my FT, E2, and DHT by around 40%. How? It raised my SHBG from 42>66, but it appears my total T didn't change much at all.

So why you say 2.5 ng/ml, I am assuming you are talking Free T? A lot of things can affect the amount of free T. But this level really seems too low for someone on any kind of TRT. Assuming it means the same thing as it would in a USA lab report.

Which raises another confounding factor, you are using a totally different lab service. Maybe post total T, FT and the ranges you have for them. (if available)

I am talking total T. The lab services here can only do total T. There may be a lab that can do more advanced testosterone tests but so far I have not found them. USA lab reports use ng/dl instead of ng/ml so just move the decimal two places to the right. 2.5 ng/ml would be 250 ng/dl. When I first started TRT my natural testosterone level was 130 ng/dl so I have a feeling that my body needs and burns though a lot of testosterone to get the levels back to normal. Still waiting on the latest test results but I will post them when I have them, even though it is probably not going to tell us much. Thanks everyone for their help and support.

 

[sebastian_r]

Sustanon max. EOD injections, if not other possible E3D.
EOD Screenshot
E3D Screenshot
You see already E3D puts you on a roller coaster.

 

[cman245]

Sustanon max. EOD injections, if not other possible E3D.

Thanks for the suggestion but that could be an issue. Sustanon pricing is about $20 US equivalent here per ml. I was buying a 10 ml vial of 200 mg/ml cypionate in the US for $35 from WalMart. $4.00 per week vs. $50 per week could be a hard pill to swallow. This would change however if I were injecting smaller amounts over those days. What changes would be made to dosage on that schedule? I would have never thought that this problem would have came up. My fault for not doing my homework but now I still have to figure out the solution.

 

[sebastian_r]

25-35mg EOD would be a good starting point, then adjust up or down based on how you feel and blood works after a couple weeks.

If you get too much E2 conversion from the EOD protocol, you can still test daily injections, which would be something around 10-20mg/day.

 

[cman245]

Labs are in but only two tests to report. Very surprising results. My total testosterone is now at 990 ng/dc which is above the point I used to stay at. The problem seems to be with my Estradiol which is currently at 111 pg/ml. The last test it was at 66 pg/ml so it has almost doubled in 1 month time. I picked up some Arimidex at the pharmacy to start trying to counter the effects but I have no idea on a starting dose. Any advice, highly appreciated.

 

[Blackhawk]

1-Where are you exactly?

2- E2; starting Adex: If you can only get limited product and labs in your country, I have to assume you are not getting the correct E2 LC/MS/MS test. If you have results from ECLIA method, the numbers can be very off, and tend to be skewed as higher than actual. So the first question there is are you symptomatic of high E2 or are you just concerned about the apparently high number?

If you are symptomatic, and set on using Adex, start lower dose than you think and titrate upward. It is all too easy to crash your E2.

I am on probably the lowest dose of Adex I have heard of, but I only need to drop E2 by 10 points. My dose is 0.0625 EOD. Many guys do well with 0.125mg doses EOD or E3D.

The low dosing is accomplished by crushing a 1mg Adex tab and mixing in 10ml vodka. So at that dilution, my dose is drawn in a syringe with no needle at 0.625 ml. For 0.125mg you would draw 1.25ml and take orally.

 

[cman245]

1-Where are you exactly?

2- E2; starting Adex: If you can only get limited product and labs in your country, I have to assume you are not getting the correct E2 LC/MS/MS test. If you have results from ECLIA method, the numbers can be very off, and tend to be skewed as higher than actual. So the first question there is are you symptomatic of high E2 or are you just concerned about the apparently high number?

If you are symptomatic, and set on using Adex, start lower dose than you think and titrate upward. It is all too easy to crash your E2.

I am on probably the lowest dose of Adex I have heard of, but I only need to drop E2 by 10 points. My dose is 0.0625 EOD. Many guys do well with 0.125mg doses EOD or E3D.

The low dosing is accomplished by crushing a 1mg Adex tab and mixing in 10ml vodka. So at that dilution, my dose is drawn in a syringe with no needle at 0.625 ml. For 0.125mg you would draw 1.25ml and take orally.

1. Indonesia

2. Assume that I am getting Playschool My First Home Lab Kit test results but I am doing the best with what is available.

Yes I am symptomatic. I am feeling like my testosterone is back below 200. I was shocked to see my testosterone so high because it just doesn't feel there. Tired, weak, no stamina, no libido. Seeing my Estrodil level almost double in one month has me wanting to hit the brakes hard on something but I don't want to crash my E2. Since I obviously am not going to be taking in any new testosterone for another week or so, I wonder if the Armidex would do much good right now. Maybe it could stop some of the conversion process that is still going on with the longer lasting esters?

 

[Systemlord]

If you're not using the sensitive estrogen (LC/MS/MS) testing, estrogen labs can't be trusted. They are other steroids that look like estrogen and give a falsely elevated reading.

 

[cman245]

If you're not using the sensitive estrogen (LC/MS/MS) testing, estrogen labs can't be trusted. They are other steroids that look like estrogen and give a falsely elevated reading.

Thanks for the advice but I can only use what is available. I am assuming that the E2 test is at least somewhat accurate based on how I feel. I've never had a testosterone level at over 900 and still feel like it was less than 200. I understand there could be other reasons but without going to the black market I cannot get what has been working for me for the past 5 years. It would so much simpler to inject 1.5 ml of testosterone cypionate 200 mg/ml once per week like I did in the past and not have any problems. Trust me, I am not happy with this Mickey Mouse crap I am having to do now.