Hard training and cutting on TRT

[pema]

I'm on TRT. Taking days to revover. Sleep is good. Nutrition good, but cals well below maintenance for last 2 months. Training very intense, but can't seem to lift more than 2 days per week. Can't recover. Completely trashed 3 days after a hard work out - dead, multiple naps, lethargy. On day 5 I feel like new and can hit PR's. Down for 3 days straight again. Repeat.

Do I simply need higher T dosage? No way am I going to stop my cut (I'm at about 12% going to 10%) and I'm not going to reduce my intense, multi set hypertrophy WO's.

Thanks.

 

[Tommy Wall]

I think you should info about your protocol and share some labs otherwise there isn’t much to respond to

 

[pema]

Don't have new labs yet. Assuming I'm 1000 total/ 30 FT/ daily dosing (i.e. good #'s), is it possible you can crash your T while cutting and hard training similar to how you feel crashed/fatigued on a cut without TRT (i.e. as a natural)? I thought I would get an edge w TRT, but no go. This cut / WO feels like all the others over the last 20 years. And I'm doing everything right - professional caliber BBer (natural though until TRT). The only difference now is I'm stronger on a cut. Still no recovery ability. All the same fatigue and need for more rest days I had as a natural. Maybe when I start my next bulk I'll notice the better recovery effects of TRT since I'll be in a surplus.

 

[CoastWatcher]

You reference daily dosing and assume high free testosterone values. Where did your SHBG sit prior to the start of your protocol?

 

[pema]

You reference daily dosing and assume high free testosterone values. Where did your SHBG sit prior to the start of your protocol?

Very high. Maybe a little under 100.

 

[iceman1212]

How long have you been lifting? What's your lifting program? (Going balls to the wall every lifting day isn't exactly a recipe for success, imo.) How large is your caloric deficit? How good is your conditioning?

I'm just finishing up a 30 pound cut which took ~5 months, and I was able to lift 4-days per week throughout whilst doing light conditioning as well (mostly erg and incline walking, some running). As reference, I'm 6' and went from 195lbs and super fluffy to 165lbs and a bit less fluffy. In that time, I was able to make progress on my lifts too: squat went from 1x5 @ 185 to 1x5 @ 235, and deadlift went from 1x5 @ 275 to 1x9 @ 285. I hurt my shoulder mid-way through the cut, so had to stop bench and OHP for a few months.

Aside from your strength training program, the culprit might be poor conditioning.

 

[pema]

I've been lifting 3-4 time a week for 20+ years. I'm at about 10% bf and my cals are now extremely low since I'm going lower. I suspect it is the low cals causing under recovery. If I don't lift I feel great on low cals. Since TRT I haven't tried eating high cals for a period and lifting in the same manner to see if higher cals will cure the issue. Maybe after summer I'll find out. Now is not the time to bulk.

 

[madman]

I'm on TRT. Taking days to revover. Sleep is good. Nutrition good, but cals well below maintenance for last 2 months. Training very intense, but can't seem to lift more than 2 days per week. Can't recover. Completely trashed 3 days after a hard work out - dead, multiple naps, lethargy. On day 5 I feel like new and can hit PR's. Down for 3 days straight again. Repeat.

Do I simply need higher T dosage? No way am I going to stop my cut (I'm at about 12% going to 10%) and I'm not going to reduce my intense, multi set hypertrophy WO's.

Thanks.

What do you expect not only are you over training which not only has a negative impact on the body physically(recovery) but is also very taxing on the CNS.

Top that off with consuming calories well below maintenance is a recipe for disaster.....regardless of being on trt and having healthy testosterone levels you are bound to run into recovery issues let alone maintaining muscle mass.

Sure when on trt having healthy T levels along with a proper diet/training protocol can improve ones body composition (muscle gain/fat loss), strength gains, recovery from exercise but it will be minor compared to when one uses steroid doses to gain muscle/strength when bulking or to maintain lean mass/strength when cutting as having T levels well beyond the upper end of the physiological range would allow one to not only enhance muscle/strength gains but recovery will be greatly improved.

You are on trt not steroids.....do not expect the same results when training intensely/extreme calorie reduction.

Believe it or not one can still easily overtrain when on trt.

You state "Down for 3 days straight again. Repeat. and "Do I simply need higher T dosage? No way am I going to stop my cut (I'm at about 12% going to 10%) and I'm not going to reduce my intense, multi set hypertrophy WO's.

Sounds like you are your own worst enemy!

 

[madman]

I run a TT trough around 1200 ng/dL and my FT is in the 30 ng/dL range.....and although I am bulking 4000 cal/day.....sure I have gained muscle/strength and my recovery has improved but I still get sore and can feel run down at times if I overtrain as I very well know muscle/strength gains and recovery on trt are in no way comparable to being on steroids.

 

[pema]

What do you expect not only are you over training which not only has a negative impact on the body physically(recovery) but is also very taxing on the CNS.

Top that off with consuming calories well below maintenance is a recipe for disaster.....regardless of being on trt and having healthy testosterone levels you are bound to run into recovery issues let alone maintaining muscle mass.

Sure when on trt having healthy T levels along with a proper diet/training protocol can improve ones body composition (muscle gain/fat loss), strength gains, recovery from exercise but it will be minor compared to when one uses steroid doses to gain muscle/strength when bulking or to maintain lean mass/strength when cutting as having T levels well beyond the upper end of the physiological range would allow one to not only enhance muscle/strength gains but recovery will be greatly improved.

You are on trt not steroids.....do not expect the same results when training intensely/extreme calorie reduction.

Believe it or not one can still easily overtrain when on trt.

You state "Down for 3 days straight again. Repeat. and "Do I simply need higher T dosage? No way am I going to stop my cut (I'm at about 12% going to 10%) and I'm not going to reduce my intense, multi set hypertrophy WO's.

Sounds like you are your own worst enemy!

 

[pema]

I know other natural male BBer's right now 8 weeks out doing cardio daily, lifting 4 days per week as heavy as possible and cutting on 1600 cals. Like I used to feel when I cut, they have some fatigue, tiredness, often lack motivation and are grumpy, but do not crash physiologically such that they shut down for 3 days. Now that I'm on TRT I beleive TRT test is not as resilient as natural test such that it is easier to crash it when natural T would not crash. If so, I may need higher dosage to counter this. Why change the dieting/lifting protocol I've used for 20 years just because I'm on TRT?

 

[madman]

I know other natural male BBer's right now 8 weeks out doing cardio daily, lifting 4 days per week as heavy as possible and cutting on 1600 cals. Like I used to feel when I cut, they have some fatigue, tiredness, often lack motivation and are grumpy, but do not crash physiologically such that they shut down for 3 days. Now that I'm on TRT I beleive TRT test is not as resilient as natural test such that it is easier to crash it when natural T would not crash. If so, I may need higher dosage to counter this. Why change the dieting/lifting protocol I've used for 20 years just because I'm on TRT?

Ridiculous for you to state such "TRT test is not as resilient as natural test"

If you are speaking in terms of testosterone blood levels than there is no way overtraining/dieting is going to crash your testosterone levels when using exogenous testosterone.....if anything it would happen to one not on trt as in natty endogenous testosterone production.

The only way blood testosterone levels are going to be too low when on trt would be from a poor protocol as in your dose of T/injection frequency are not sufficient enough to attain high enough levels throughout the week resulting in a sub-par trough.

 

[pema]

Ridiculous for you to state such "TRT test is not as resilient as natural test"

If you are speaking in terms of testosterone blood levels than there is no way overtraining/dieting is going to crash your testosterone levels when using exogenous testosterone.....if anything it would happen to one not on trt as in natty endogenous testosterone production.

The only way blood testosterone levels are going to be too low when on trt would be from a poor protocol as in your dose of T/injection frequency are not sufficient enough to attain high enough levels throughout the week resulting in a sub-par trough.

Fair enough. I'm speculating. Well I'm stronger than I've ever been even on these low cals so I'm sure I'm not in a trough on that day. More experimentation required I guess.