Frequency of HCG *MONOTHERAPY* doses

[HR_Watson]

Hi all,

I realize there's another active thread with a similar question - but this is slightly different, so bear with me.

After 9 years of Clomid monotherapy, and then 6 months of Clomid/anastrozole, I'm currently on HCG monotherapy - not taking anything else - and the benefits are amazing, like night and day.

My original dosage was 1500 iu per week, 750iu x 2, Monday and Thurs mornings. The Dr said I was free to divide it into 3 doses of 500iu if I preferred.

I noticed that unlike Clomid, there were definite peaks/valleys - and that 2x a week wasn't enough to sustain me, so rather than try 3x at 500iu, I decided to add a bump of 500iu on Saturdays, for a total of 2000ius per week.

At this dosage, I felt *amazing* - but started to develop minor gynecomastia, so I'm backing down, which is a bummer.

So I'm wondering - would 500iu x3 a week be a better approach? I've read a bunch of different articles and threads on here that suggest that lower, but more frequent doses prevent excessive aromatization?

Also - for reference, I'm on HCG and not T, as I'm secondary, not primary, and have no desire to induce primary as fertility is a major concern.

Thanks in advance!

 

[FeelingLost]

Hi watson, I posted in your other thread. I won't repeat myself. You really need a proper blood test. At 2000ius per week I would be worried about becoming desensitized to the HCG stimulus. I think there is a name for that but I don't remember it, sorry.

 

[Vince]

I have to agree with feelinglost, do labs. It's the best way to find out what's going on.

 

[Re-Ride]

Leydig cells, in response to LH, in healthy treatment naive men, produce pulses of testosterone throughout the day peaking in the early am corresponding to pulses of LH produced by the pituitary.

hCG acts as an analog to replace low LH in hypogonadic men. In hCG mono the Leydigs are receiving continuous stimulation as long as the hCG serum level is sustained.

A notable difference between T replacement and hCG mono therapy is how fast endogenous serum T levels can drop. From 700 to 100 in a matter of hours is possible owing to depletion of serum hCG which has a very short serum half life. This is why you are experiencing dramatic peaks and valleys of energy on twice weekly dosing.

Refer to Dr. Saya's study. Most men on hCG mono will inject daily or EOD to maintain therapeutic levels of serum hCG.

You could try E3rd day and see how you feel. Every man responds differently so there is no way of knowing whether 100 or 500 iu or more per day is correct. Patience in the order of weeks is required while the Leydigs are growing or coming back online. After that it is fairly easy to adjust your dose by how you respond. Keep in mind though that the time you are investing in hCG mono might better be invested in dialing in TRT which is statistically likely where you will end up.

And yes you can feel absolutely fantastic for a period ranging from weeks to months on hCG mono. One explanation is that the many hCG receptors outside of the testes are being stimulated.
"
In my case I went almost a year on mono before treatment failure and moving to T cyp injection. Most knowledgeable physicians pay no attention to the old rat studies and do not believe hCG receptor desensitization occurs in humans.

 

[Re-Ride]

Many on hCG mono do see the gyno and nipple sensitivity resolve on its own after a few weeks or months. I'm not convinced of the value of frequent serum testing early in hCG mono for dose adjusting purposes. In my case multiple hormones fluctuated wildly then leveled off on their own as did high hematocrit but hat took months. You might get lower E2 with more frequent dosing. Personally, knowing what I now know about how I respond I would not worry about E2 testing early on either.

 

[Vince]

HCG can induce aromatase synthesis so this is something you should know. It also increases endogenous testosterone in the Secondary man so you could elevate your total testosterone serum levels even more with the addition of HCG.
​

 

[HR_Watson]

Super helpful everyone, thank you.

I really appreciate your feedback, Re-ride, especially as you have hCG monotherapy experience.

A few quick details:

I'm not self treating - I'm seeing a highly experienced Urologist that was recommended through this website. I have tons of lab work, so without posting all of it, some relevant numbers:

T (on Clomid + Anastrozole) 675 [ref 200-1000]
T (hCG Mono) 1005
E (On Clomid + Anastrozole) 22 [ref <41]
E (On hCG Mono) 59

Yes, everything is elevated - but proportionately. My Dr Doesn't subscribe to the idea that E needs to be in the 20s, but rather that it's important to maintain a healthy proportion of T to E. I wasn't experiencing any negative sides of elevated E, until I bumped my dosage of hCG from 1500iu a week to 2000iu, but I don't have blood work for that dosage.
I was hoping things would level out, but they didn't, so I've dropped back down to 1500, and the gyno is resolving on its own. I kinda wish I could have stayed at the 2000 iu, as I felt amazing. Energy, mood, libido, everything through the roof.

I'm open to the idea of T replacement when I'm older, however, I'm secondary, not primary. I'm extremely responsive to both Clomid and hCG - the issue for me is pituitary-based, not testicular. Fertility is a major concern for me, and so my Dr and I have decided against T replacement for now.

Also, as you noted, my physician isn't concerned about hCG desensitization at such low levels. I understand that for people on here who use hCG in conjunction with T, 1500iu a week might seem high, but for a monotherapy dose, that's actually quite low.

Now that the gyno has resolved, I might try doing 500iu x 3 for a bit, and see if that feels any better. I feel pretty decent at 1500, it's just that at 2000, I finally felt alive for the first time in 9 years.

Cheers!

Many on hCG mono do see the gyno and nipple sensitivity resolve on its own after a few weeks or months. I'm not convinced of the value of frequent serum testing early in hCG mono for dose adjusting purposes. In my case multiple hormones fluctuated wildly then leveled off on their own as did high hematocrit but hat took months. You might get lower E2 with more frequent dosing. Personally, knowing what I now know about how I respond I would not worry about E2 testing early on either.

 

[Re-Ride]

Good that you are placing emphasis on symptom resolution. If you get fatigued by the 3rd day don't hesitate to go EOD. On mono a healthy diet is even more important to drive T production. Enjoy the feeling of extreme vigor and wellness while it lasts but don't panic when the honeymoon period starts to recede. I would not worry at all about fertility if adding exogenous T as long as you continue with hCG. A compounded cream might be a good next step when the time arrives.

 

[HR_Watson]

Just in case anyone is suffering from the same issues that I have, here's the latest, and it's not looking so hot.

At 2000iu I was feeling amazing, my T was at 1010, but my E was at 59 and I started to develop minor gynecomastia.

I've since dropped down to 1500iu, and my most recent labs came back as:
T: 670
E2: 47
Prolactin: 10.8

Doctor has prescribed Nolvadex/Tamoxifen to deal with the gynecomastia, and I'm not looking forward to it.
I'll note that 670T on hCG feels way better than the same levels on Clomid, even with the elevated E.

I'm wondering how to move forward. I felt amazing having my T in the upper ranges, but I felt pretty awful when I added even .5mg of Anastrozole to the mix.

At this point I'm thinking about doing low dose T + hCG + super low dose Ai. I'm secondary, and fertility is a major concern for me.

 

[Dr Justin Saya MD]

Perhaps a touch of anastrozole (0.125mg) twice per week as a trial. There are some, however, that are sensitive to the drug itself regardless of doses and E2 levels.

 

[HR_Watson]

Perhaps a touch of anastrozole (0.125mg) twice per week as a trial. There are some, however, that are sensitive to the drug itself regardless of doses and E2 levels.

Thank you for your feedback, Dr. Saya. I'll be reaching out to your office so that I can schedule an appointment with you directly.

 

[Dr Justin Saya MD]

Thank you for your feedback, Dr. Saya. I'll be reaching out to your office so that I can schedule an appointment with you directly.

I’ll look forward to it!

 

[Giovanni73]

Hi all,

I realize there's another active thread with a similar question - but this is slightly different, so bear with me.

After 9 years of Clomid monotherapy, and then 6 months of Clomid/anastrozole, I'm currently on HCG monotherapy - not taking anything else - and the benefits are amazing, like night and day.

My original dosage was 1500 iu per week, 750iu x 2, Monday and Thurs mornings. The Dr said I was free to divide it into 3 doses of 500iu if I preferred.

I noticed that unlike Clomid, there were definite peaks/valleys - and that 2x a week wasn't enough to sustain me, so rather than try 3x at 500iu, I decided to add a bump of 500iu on Saturdays, for a total of 2000ius per week.

At this dosage, I felt *amazing* - but started to develop minor gynecomastia, so I'm backing down, which is a bummer.

So I'm wondering - would 500iu x3 a week be a better approach? I've read a bunch of different articles and threads on here that suggest that lower, but more frequent doses prevent excessive aromatization?

Also - for reference, I'm on HCG and not T, as I'm secondary, not primary, and have no desire to induce primary as fertility is a major concern.

Thanks in advance!

TRT made me feel horrible.. HCG mono Therapy is so fantastic. Why wouldn't someone rather have their balls making the test? It's like day and night... How have you been doing on it? What is your dose as of recent?

 

[Gman86]

It sucks that you can't just stay at 2,000iu's/ week and just use a small dose of AI. If you felt amazing at 2,000iu's, but started to get gynecomastia, you would think that staying at that dose and using a small dose of AI would be the simple solution.

I'm also very sensitive to AI's and don't feel good on them, but do you think something like 0.125mg of anastrozole 2x/ week would be worth a shot like Dr. Saya recommended? Or do you think you'll just feel lousy on an AI regardless of how low the dose?

 

[Giovanni73]

It sucks that you can't just stay at 2,000iu's/ week and just use a small dose of AI. If you felt amazing at 2,000iu's, but started to get gynecomastia, you would think that staying at that dose and using a small dose of AI would be the simple solution.

I'm also very sensitive to AI's and don't feel good on them, but do you think something like 0.125mg of anastrozole 2x/ week would be worth a shot like Dr. Saya recommended? Or do you think you'll just feel lousy on an AI regardless of how low the dose?

Me, personally, an AI always made me feel better. .125 twice a week is a good dose. I pretty much take .25 with each injection. It works for me. I also take Cialis 3 times a week (5 mg) I have been off Test for 10 days now... Been running HCG for 2 weeks, now, I stop it all tomorrow and wait for my balls to kick in. I have nothing against TRT ans HRT but I just don't like living from lab work to lab work. My pre trt TT was 376... I had no problems with erections, I just wanted more energy, instead I got more stress.

 

[HR_Watson]

It sucks that you can't just stay at 2,000iu's/ week and just use a small dose of AI. If you felt amazing at 2,000iu's, but started to get gynecomastia, you would think that staying at that dose and using a small dose of AI would be the simple solution.

I'm also very sensitive to AI's and don't feel good on them, but do you think something like 0.125mg of anastrozole 2x/ week would be worth a shot like Dr. Saya recommended? Or do you think you'll just feel lousy on an AI regardless of how low the dose?

Hey man, I owe you a PM, I'll get to it this week, promise

So the Nolva completely cured the gyno, but the sides were awful - depression, anxiety, extreme lethargy and fatigue, muscle weakness. The only positive is that I dropped an amazing amount of weight, at least 6-7 lbs and around 3-4% body fat. I was looking cut AF.

I'm back at 2000iu (split into 750, 750 and 500) and taking 3.75 mg of Letro (1.25 x 3). I've lost a bit of the definition I had on Nolva - but the Letro seems to be agreeing with my system for now. My E2 is still pretty high, and there's definitely a bit of water weight happening, so I might try upping the letro just a little bit.

I feel pretty good. Not as amazing as I did when I first started hCG, but my sex drive is great, my erection strength is awesome, and my mood is generally pretty fantastic. And 1000x better than I ever felt on Clomid, that's for sure.

 

[HR_Watson]

TRT made me feel horrible.. HCG mono Therapy is so fantastic. Why wouldn't someone rather have their balls making the test? It's like day and night... How have you been doing on it? What is your dose as of recent?

Personally, for what it's worth, I agree with this. If you're secondary, I think there's a lot of benefits in trying to boost your T levels through your body's own production. I'm a strong responder to Clomid and hCG, and I don't want to induce primary, so for now, I'm very happy trying hCG mono.

I know a lot of people on this forum disagree with this, and this is just my opinion, based on my own circumstances.

See the above post for my current dosage. I struggled with gyno for a bit (still fighting it off) - you can see my thread on that if you look up my post history. Happy to answer any additional questions through here, or PM.

Like I said in the post above - I feel a million times better on hCG than I ever felt on Clomid. My T is somewhere in the 950-1000 range, my mood, energy, sex drive, energy, everything - much better. And personally, I love having a fuller, heavier package.

 

[Tommy Wall]

Thx for your posts! It´s almost tempting to try it our for myself. Only HCG no testo and still have the t value above mid range.

 

[Gman86]

Haha don't even worry about it. The private message system kind of sucks lol. You can just update me, and everyone else, on this thread if that's more convenient for you.

So I see you're on Letro now, that's some strong stuff. Now that the gyno has dissipated, idk if I would stay on Letro long term. I don't see many people having that as part of their protocol, and it's probably for good reason lol

Also idk if splitting the HCG dosage unevenly like that is the best option. I personally would probably do EOD dosing and just make each injection the same amount. That's how I did HCG mono and it worked pretty well, other than having the gyno like symptoms like you had, which I personally still think was due to high prolactin in my case, not so much the high E2. Because my E2 is around the same now on Test + HCG, and my prolactin is on the low-mid level, and I currently have zero itchy nipples or sensitivity. Obviously prolactin follows E2 to a degree, so if E2 rises so will prolactin. But for me that is much less the case on Test + HCG than it was on HCG mono. Something about HCG at high doses makes my prolactin go nuts.

I just recently started doing my HCG everyday btw, due to hearing some guys having really good success with it and Dr. Chrisler highly recommending it. The main reason I switched from EOD HCG to ED is to just try and get down my E2 a little without having to use an AI. I wonder if anyone has had good success with HCG mono doing ED injections.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

HR WATSON

How do you define gynecomastia? Itchy or sentive nipples?