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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Testosterone Basics & Questions
First post. Can’t get E2 under control, starting to worry
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<blockquote data-quote="Cataceous" data-source="post: 276898" data-attributes="member: 38109"><p>I view this as a problem more with the distribution than the amount of testosterone. Delivered as one injection weekly it yields unnaturally large oscillations, likely leading to the reported problems. Delivered as 7.14 mg TC — 5 mg T — daily, a significant fraction of men would do well, setting aside potential issues related to HPTA shutdown. This is in the context of the 6-7 mg of testosterone that's typical of endogenous production in healthy young men. How many have actually tried this? </p><p></p><p></p><p>Is this a subjective impression or do you have any hard data? How many guys on TRT use protocols that keep testosterone in the physiological range every day? Is this "low dosing"? My thoughts: There may be a decent-sized cohort on Androgel and equivalent that actually absorb well enough to qualify. DHT might be a little elevated, but they still do fine and thus are not often seen in the forums. Those on Xyosted and following the guidelines also qualify, except for the ones with low SHBG whose doctors do not use free testosterone as their metric. Users of Natesto also qualify, as would many on testosterone undecanoate.</p><p></p><p>So I agree, physiological dosing is not uncharted territory. There's plenty of research on the above protocols. But contrary to the assertion, a lot of men do feel better on these protocols, or the products wouldn't even exist in the TRT market. The uncharted territory is in injecting 120+ mg TC/week for years, or more broadly, in taking in an average of 12+ mg T daily, which applies to many on high-concentration topical products. I'm not going to argue that the average risk is high, particularly at the lower end from 120-150 mg TC/week. However, based on the toxicity research I consider it likely that some modest fraction of users would be harmed by long-term use of these doses, even in the absence of overt side effects.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I believe there is virtually no evidence for this — the claim that most men on TRT somehow require more testosterone than 99+% ever make naturally. If you're relying on anecdotes then I have <a href="https://www.excelmale.com/threads/answering-some-questions-new-to-forum-much-appreciated.26955/post-245316" target="_blank">plenty of my own</a> where guys fare worse on such doses. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Interesting choices. With both vitamin D and zinc there is evidence that these doses can be harmful. With vitamin D, supplementation yielding serum levels over 50 ng/mL is problematic. 50 mg/day of zinc is high enough on its own to potentially be hazardous. Note that 40 mg is considered the tolerable upper limit for adults. I would refer you to Curt Moyer's well-researched articles on these supplements, but alas the site no longer exists. </p><p></p><p>The core is 3.2 mg testosterone enanthate and 2.4 mg testosterone propionate injected daily early am. There's also 600 mcg of progesterone injected at bedtime. For HPTA activity, 15 mg of enclomiphene is taken daily PO, and 20 mcg of GnRH is injected 5.25 times per day.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Cataceous, post: 276898, member: 38109"] I view this as a problem more with the distribution than the amount of testosterone. Delivered as one injection weekly it yields unnaturally large oscillations, likely leading to the reported problems. Delivered as 7.14 mg TC — 5 mg T — daily, a significant fraction of men would do well, setting aside potential issues related to HPTA shutdown. This is in the context of the 6-7 mg of testosterone that's typical of endogenous production in healthy young men. How many have actually tried this? Is this a subjective impression or do you have any hard data? How many guys on TRT use protocols that keep testosterone in the physiological range every day? Is this "low dosing"? My thoughts: There may be a decent-sized cohort on Androgel and equivalent that actually absorb well enough to qualify. DHT might be a little elevated, but they still do fine and thus are not often seen in the forums. Those on Xyosted and following the guidelines also qualify, except for the ones with low SHBG whose doctors do not use free testosterone as their metric. Users of Natesto also qualify, as would many on testosterone undecanoate. So I agree, physiological dosing is not uncharted territory. There's plenty of research on the above protocols. But contrary to the assertion, a lot of men do feel better on these protocols, or the products wouldn't even exist in the TRT market. The uncharted territory is in injecting 120+ mg TC/week for years, or more broadly, in taking in an average of 12+ mg T daily, which applies to many on high-concentration topical products. I'm not going to argue that the average risk is high, particularly at the lower end from 120-150 mg TC/week. However, based on the toxicity research I consider it likely that some modest fraction of users would be harmed by long-term use of these doses, even in the absence of overt side effects. I believe there is virtually no evidence for this — the claim that most men on TRT somehow require more testosterone than 99+% ever make naturally. If you're relying on anecdotes then I have [URL='https://www.excelmale.com/threads/answering-some-questions-new-to-forum-much-appreciated.26955/post-245316']plenty of my own[/URL] where guys fare worse on such doses. Interesting choices. With both vitamin D and zinc there is evidence that these doses can be harmful. With vitamin D, supplementation yielding serum levels over 50 ng/mL is problematic. 50 mg/day of zinc is high enough on its own to potentially be hazardous. Note that 40 mg is considered the tolerable upper limit for adults. I would refer you to Curt Moyer's well-researched articles on these supplements, but alas the site no longer exists. The core is 3.2 mg testosterone enanthate and 2.4 mg testosterone propionate injected daily early am. There's also 600 mcg of progesterone injected at bedtime. For HPTA activity, 15 mg of enclomiphene is taken daily PO, and 20 mcg of GnRH is injected 5.25 times per day. [/QUOTE]
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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Testosterone Basics & Questions
First post. Can’t get E2 under control, starting to worry
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