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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Testosterone Basics & Questions
First post. Can’t get E2 under control, starting to worry
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<blockquote data-quote="RobRoy" data-source="post: 276732" data-attributes="member: 42893"><p>"Glad you mentioned this example. I would bet money that raising fT3 over the long haul reduces life expectancy. Maybe it's worth it, but don't you think informed consent is essential? I don't see enough of this latter, which applies to high testosterone too. The doctors promoting excess blithely claim no risk when they actually do not know."</p><p>Why do you even attempt to give advice on a forum? You obviously have such an extreme bias and cannot overcome your belief perseverance. You cannot advance your knowledge and understand that when we get testosterone it's not the same as when we make it. You can't understand that with regard to hormones that having a normal level does not mean they do not suffer symptoms of a deficiency. And you definitely have an extreme bias against the word super physiologic and it is men like you that have taken that word and made it to imply harm. It does not because when levels are super physiologic with regard to free T3 and free testosterone every parameter of health that we can measure improves. When you make statements like you do it becomes obvious that you are oblivious to the decades of studies we have. We have been giving desiccated thyroid and therefore raising free T3 levels since the 1890's. There were no thyroid labs until the 1970s. So we're talking about at least eight decades of utilizing thyroid and raising free T3 levels without any labs but instead just treating symptoms. Those were the good old days of medicine. There was no shortened lifespan in those treated and this is born out in all of the medical literature. The same holds true for testosterone. First started using it in the mid 1930s and there were no labs until the 1970s. Men had supraphysiologic levels for decades and yet no decrease in lifespan. </p><p>What some of us are now talking about is what should be talked about. We are talking about the fact that when we treat symptomatic men and women and resolve their symptoms the levels are typically outside of the so-called normal range and therefore supraphysiological. When we make testosterone ourselves we are simply more sensitive to it because that is a complex physiologic process with many intermediate hormones involved that certainly play a role in testosterones actions. When we bypass our natural production and just get the end product it takes more than we could produce naturally to get the same response from a clinical standpoint. In order to understand this this takes actually opening your mind and breaking away from everything that you thought you knew and forgetting about how you learned it first. You have this fear of levels outside the normal range with regard to testosterone and thyroid that is not supported by any medical data. In other words you fear a boogie man that does not exist. I've said it so many times that work was normal prior to July 2017 is now considered supraphysiologic. So do you mean testosterone levels of 1150 for instance we're healthy prior to July 2017 but after 2017 they became dangerous and super physiologic. By your logic that's exactly what you're saying and nothing could be further from the truth. Men don't need less testosterone than ever they are just producing less testosterone than ever. We need as much and potentially more than ever based on our exposure to our toxic environment. So let me be clear when I do find super physiologic and healthy. I'm finding a testosterone level usually between one and 2000 and a free testosterone level typically between 30 and 60 ng/dL. And before anyone says well if those are good why not go higher? Well the reason is that there is a plateau to the feel good effects of testosterone. That plateau is when the androgen receptors are fully saturated. Increasing testosterone any further than that will have no effect on how a man feels. These feel good effects are when the receptors are fully saturated of course in the central nervous system (T,E2DHT). Reason bodybuilders have their levels excessively high it's not because they feel better but it's because in the skeletal muscle androgen receptors are up regulated with increasing androgens therefore they can continue to increase lean muscle mass. That doesn't happen in the brain. So your question has been answered we treat mental symptomatic improvement but there is a point in which raising levels any further will have no beneficial effect other than to increase lean muscle mass. I have to find that saturation point for my clinical perspective. If you listen to peter attia he will say that it occurs at a level around 700 of testosterone which I disagree. That may occur if you make it yourself and have a level of 700 but if you take testosterone then it's going to take a level greater than that to exert the same effect you would get if you made it yourself. </p><p>You should try stepping back and opening up your mind....</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="RobRoy, post: 276732, member: 42893"] "Glad you mentioned this example. I would bet money that raising fT3 over the long haul reduces life expectancy. Maybe it's worth it, but don't you think informed consent is essential? I don't see enough of this latter, which applies to high testosterone too. The doctors promoting excess blithely claim no risk when they actually do not know." Why do you even attempt to give advice on a forum? You obviously have such an extreme bias and cannot overcome your belief perseverance. You cannot advance your knowledge and understand that when we get testosterone it's not the same as when we make it. You can't understand that with regard to hormones that having a normal level does not mean they do not suffer symptoms of a deficiency. And you definitely have an extreme bias against the word super physiologic and it is men like you that have taken that word and made it to imply harm. It does not because when levels are super physiologic with regard to free T3 and free testosterone every parameter of health that we can measure improves. When you make statements like you do it becomes obvious that you are oblivious to the decades of studies we have. We have been giving desiccated thyroid and therefore raising free T3 levels since the 1890's. There were no thyroid labs until the 1970s. So we're talking about at least eight decades of utilizing thyroid and raising free T3 levels without any labs but instead just treating symptoms. Those were the good old days of medicine. There was no shortened lifespan in those treated and this is born out in all of the medical literature. The same holds true for testosterone. First started using it in the mid 1930s and there were no labs until the 1970s. Men had supraphysiologic levels for decades and yet no decrease in lifespan. What some of us are now talking about is what should be talked about. We are talking about the fact that when we treat symptomatic men and women and resolve their symptoms the levels are typically outside of the so-called normal range and therefore supraphysiological. When we make testosterone ourselves we are simply more sensitive to it because that is a complex physiologic process with many intermediate hormones involved that certainly play a role in testosterones actions. When we bypass our natural production and just get the end product it takes more than we could produce naturally to get the same response from a clinical standpoint. In order to understand this this takes actually opening your mind and breaking away from everything that you thought you knew and forgetting about how you learned it first. You have this fear of levels outside the normal range with regard to testosterone and thyroid that is not supported by any medical data. In other words you fear a boogie man that does not exist. I've said it so many times that work was normal prior to July 2017 is now considered supraphysiologic. So do you mean testosterone levels of 1150 for instance we're healthy prior to July 2017 but after 2017 they became dangerous and super physiologic. By your logic that's exactly what you're saying and nothing could be further from the truth. Men don't need less testosterone than ever they are just producing less testosterone than ever. We need as much and potentially more than ever based on our exposure to our toxic environment. So let me be clear when I do find super physiologic and healthy. I'm finding a testosterone level usually between one and 2000 and a free testosterone level typically between 30 and 60 ng/dL. And before anyone says well if those are good why not go higher? Well the reason is that there is a plateau to the feel good effects of testosterone. That plateau is when the androgen receptors are fully saturated. Increasing testosterone any further than that will have no effect on how a man feels. These feel good effects are when the receptors are fully saturated of course in the central nervous system (T,E2DHT). Reason bodybuilders have their levels excessively high it's not because they feel better but it's because in the skeletal muscle androgen receptors are up regulated with increasing androgens therefore they can continue to increase lean muscle mass. That doesn't happen in the brain. So your question has been answered we treat mental symptomatic improvement but there is a point in which raising levels any further will have no beneficial effect other than to increase lean muscle mass. I have to find that saturation point for my clinical perspective. If you listen to peter attia he will say that it occurs at a level around 700 of testosterone which I disagree. That may occur if you make it yourself and have a level of 700 but if you take testosterone then it's going to take a level greater than that to exert the same effect you would get if you made it yourself. You should try stepping back and opening up your mind.... [/QUOTE]
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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Testosterone Basics & Questions
First post. Can’t get E2 under control, starting to worry
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