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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Testosterone Basics & Questions
First post. Can’t get E2 under control, starting to worry
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<blockquote data-quote="RobRoy" data-source="post: 276573" data-attributes="member: 42893"><p>[ATTACH=full]41916[/ATTACH][ATTACH=full]41917[/ATTACH]</p><p>Cataceous and all his infinite wisdom and complete lack of clinical experience just will never understand, or know what he doesn't know. He can't open his mind enough to understand where the normal values come from. Like with estradiol for instance, he gave us a quote of a normal range or young men, but he doesn't even understand where that number came from or what it represents or what it does not represent. He's completely oblivious, but yet he gives advice. I will tell you I can show you different lab normals in different areas of the country as well as in different decades and the normal estradiol level for some of those labs was 20-90 not the 8-35 for labcorp. The normal range for LabCorp was not for me on testosterone and actually, they have no idea where those numbers came from because they have no data. It was collected several decades ago and most likely represented male volunteers that worked at endocrine sciences at that time which was the precursor to LabCorp. So we know nothing about the man at all. We know nothing about their health status order testosterone levels or anything else. I talked to the medical Director for an hour and she did the research over a period of two weeks to try to find out where the normal range came from. Ultimately, she had to call the medical Director, who worked there a couple of decades ago and told her that there were no studies, and that they had no records of how they developed that normal level but that it most likely represented male volunteers. But yet men, like Cataceous, want to take that as gospel, and nothing could be further from the truth. The normal range of 20 to 90 that I quote was in the New England Journal of Medicine in a study that was being done on a man and that was the normal range in that lab. Of course that was a 1997 when testosterone levels were higher than they are now in men. He also cannot understand that, aiming for a physiologic number that we would produce ourselves, when we give testosterone, does not result in good clinical outcomes in most men or in clinical studies. There's plenty of clinical studies out there, giving me a testosterone and keeping the numbers in the mid physiologic range where the men didn't get any improvement at all. He also is unaware that there is no harm of having a super physiologic number within reason. What is that within reason well that within reason is, there's no harm with a level of 1 to 2000 at all. When we look at clinical outcomes in men that get testosterone dosed to resolve symptoms. We see that when those symptoms resolve their numbers are typically outside of the normal physiologic range. So-called supraphysiologic. No harm in that at all. He also doesn't understand that testosterone works directly through its active metabolites, such as estradiol. When we take testosterone, we will raise estradiol because that's how testosterone provides us with benefits. It provides benefits through its active metabolites. No study, and I mean no study in 85 years of utilizing testosterone showed men got benefit when we blocked or controlled estradiol but instead, every study that did show an improvement in men, while taking testosterone, they did not block or control estradiol, but in every one of those studies, when they raise testosterone levels, they also raise levels of its active metabolites, because that's how testosterone works. He can't wrap his head outside of the normal range. He is constrained by a fear that is not founded by the medical literature. He is constrained by his belief perseverance. He is constrained by his actual lack of medical knowledge. He also refuses to understand that the recommendations that we aim for the mid normal range when giving me a testosterone is not based on any actual medical data that shows that's what works best. There is also no medical data to support staying within the so-called normal physiologic range when giving men testosterone. These are all just recommendations and opinions, but not recommendations or opinions that are based on actual medical data. Larry lip, Schultz author this study, and they're based on patients that they treated, and they treated patients outside of the normal physiologic range to supraphysiologic levels.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="RobRoy, post: 276573, member: 42893"] [ATTACH type="full"]41916[/ATTACH][ATTACH type="full"]41917[/ATTACH] Cataceous and all his infinite wisdom and complete lack of clinical experience just will never understand, or know what he doesn't know. He can't open his mind enough to understand where the normal values come from. Like with estradiol for instance, he gave us a quote of a normal range or young men, but he doesn't even understand where that number came from or what it represents or what it does not represent. He's completely oblivious, but yet he gives advice. I will tell you I can show you different lab normals in different areas of the country as well as in different decades and the normal estradiol level for some of those labs was 20-90 not the 8-35 for labcorp. The normal range for LabCorp was not for me on testosterone and actually, they have no idea where those numbers came from because they have no data. It was collected several decades ago and most likely represented male volunteers that worked at endocrine sciences at that time which was the precursor to LabCorp. So we know nothing about the man at all. We know nothing about their health status order testosterone levels or anything else. I talked to the medical Director for an hour and she did the research over a period of two weeks to try to find out where the normal range came from. Ultimately, she had to call the medical Director, who worked there a couple of decades ago and told her that there were no studies, and that they had no records of how they developed that normal level but that it most likely represented male volunteers. But yet men, like Cataceous, want to take that as gospel, and nothing could be further from the truth. The normal range of 20 to 90 that I quote was in the New England Journal of Medicine in a study that was being done on a man and that was the normal range in that lab. Of course that was a 1997 when testosterone levels were higher than they are now in men. He also cannot understand that, aiming for a physiologic number that we would produce ourselves, when we give testosterone, does not result in good clinical outcomes in most men or in clinical studies. There's plenty of clinical studies out there, giving me a testosterone and keeping the numbers in the mid physiologic range where the men didn't get any improvement at all. He also is unaware that there is no harm of having a super physiologic number within reason. What is that within reason well that within reason is, there's no harm with a level of 1 to 2000 at all. When we look at clinical outcomes in men that get testosterone dosed to resolve symptoms. We see that when those symptoms resolve their numbers are typically outside of the normal physiologic range. So-called supraphysiologic. No harm in that at all. He also doesn't understand that testosterone works directly through its active metabolites, such as estradiol. When we take testosterone, we will raise estradiol because that's how testosterone provides us with benefits. It provides benefits through its active metabolites. No study, and I mean no study in 85 years of utilizing testosterone showed men got benefit when we blocked or controlled estradiol but instead, every study that did show an improvement in men, while taking testosterone, they did not block or control estradiol, but in every one of those studies, when they raise testosterone levels, they also raise levels of its active metabolites, because that's how testosterone works. He can't wrap his head outside of the normal range. He is constrained by a fear that is not founded by the medical literature. He is constrained by his belief perseverance. He is constrained by his actual lack of medical knowledge. He also refuses to understand that the recommendations that we aim for the mid normal range when giving me a testosterone is not based on any actual medical data that shows that's what works best. There is also no medical data to support staying within the so-called normal physiologic range when giving men testosterone. These are all just recommendations and opinions, but not recommendations or opinions that are based on actual medical data. Larry lip, Schultz author this study, and they're based on patients that they treated, and they treated patients outside of the normal physiologic range to supraphysiologic levels. [/QUOTE]
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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Testosterone Basics & Questions
First post. Can’t get E2 under control, starting to worry
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