E2 fluctuation makes no sense

[Deuce]

I've been on cypionate for many years. I've changed the dosage and frequency trying to find my desired level, many times.

While taking 200 mg every 7 days my total T was around 1000- 1200 and estradial (non sensitive) was always low 20's.

I tried 70mg every 3 days(to keep levels more stable) and my Total T measured over 1500 and E2 jumped to mid 50's.

I went back to a weekly dose....at 150mg and also added a Dim supplement. This resulted In a total T around 1200 and E2 skyrocketed to 74.

Dim is supposed to lower estrogen, and a lower dose of T would also result in a lower e2.

Please keep in mind any changes I've made, I stuck with for atleast a month before having labs drawn, for everything to level out.

I'm simply at a loss as to how significantly less testosterone now results in higher Total T and E2 .....

I have an AI, however I tend to believe it's more important to have a balanced ratio of T and E2. I also do not want to crash my HDL which is detrimental to heart health and unfortunately is a proven side effect of anastrazole.


What gives?

 

[Systemlord]

DiM adjusts estrogen balance, it doesn’t lower estrogen. What you’ve done is change the way your body balances estrogen. DIM changes the balance between good and bad estrogen.

Calcium D-gluconate can lower estrogen but if you feel fine leave it alone.

Why is an estrogen at 74 a bad thing?

 

[Deuce]

DiM adjusts estrogen balance, it doesn’t lower estrogen. What you’ve done is change the way your body balances estrogen. DIM changes the balance between good and bad estrogen.

Calcium D-gluconate can lower estrogen but if you feel fine leave it alone.

Why is an estrogen at 74 a bad thing?

I don't know that it is bad.....But the doc goes by the lab range....which maxes at 44 for a male...hence prescribing the AI. He even suggested up to 2mg a week....

I have stopped the dim and still have higher test at much lower dose than I used to.... and nearly triple the e2 (without dim) that I had prior to dim...for a year or more.

It boggles me that 200 per week netted 1200 Total T... and now as low as 140 has resulted in 1200-1500+

 

[Systemlord]

But the doc goes by the lab range....which maxes at 44 for a male...hence prescribing the AI.

Doctors treat symptoms, if you have no medical problems, no action is taken. If this E2 level was too high for you, you’d know it!

Whenever you try too treat a high E2 value with no symptoms, it usually always ends badly.

 

[Systemlord]

He even suggested up to 2mg a week....

I wouldn’t listen to this doctor, he’s not up to date. 2mg is way too much and microdosing is preferred, .125 mg for those with symptoms and when lowering the T dosage doesn’t resolve issues.

 

[Deuce]

Doctors treat symptoms, if you have no medical problems, no action is taken. If this E2 level was too high for you, you’d know it!

Whenever you try too treat a high E2 value with no symptoms, it usually always ends badly.

I hear you but that's not actually accurate. Things like diabetes cholesterol blood pressure these things are all treated to prevent a bad outcome, based on labs. They don't wait until you have a heart attack or stroke to put you on blood pressure medication.

I meant to say earlier too..... I do appreciate you responding. I'm open to hearing any opinions out there.

 

[Systemlord]

I hear you but that's not actually accurate. Things like diabetes cholesterol blood pressure these things are all treated to prevent a bad outcome

My apologies for a sloppy post, what I meant was if a guy goes to see an endocrinologist because of low-T values without symptoms, even though low-T is associated with increased mortality, he’s not going to recommend TRT.

So let’s flip this the other way, high E2, no symptoms, no treatment.

 

[Deuce]

My apologies for a sloppy post, what I meant was if a guy goes to see an endocrinologist because of low-T values without symptoms, even though low-T is associated with increased mortality, he’s not going to recommend TRT.

So let’s flip this the other way, high E2, no symptoms, no treatment.

Of all the doctors that post on YouTube I am fond of doctor Rand.

He's pretty aggressive with aI's. He says to start them right away and stay on them . The only reason to take one would be to lower estrogen. Quite obviously you feel hes wrong?


Conversly the testosterone doctor say to never touch AI's and thats they're dangerous. This is why I'm lost

 

[Systemlord]

Of all the doctors that post on YouTube I am fond of doctor Rand.

Dr. Rand is very knowledgeable but like all doctors, he’s only human and opinions on what’s healthy vary wildly in the medical community.

 

[Systemlord]

He says to start them right away and stay on them .

There’s a difference between TRT and performance enhancement. Two very different worlds.

Jack a man’s testosterone supraphysiological and drugs are needed to counter side effects. This is where the 3 mg AI per week comes from. A replacement, normal testosterone level most of the time requires no AI, unless of course you’re very high body fat and inflamed.

 

[Deuce]

There’s a difference between TRT and performance enhancement. Two very different worlds.

If by performance enhancement you mean body building.... I'd agree it would be much worse in bodybuilding. But everyone takes TRT to enhance their performance. Whether it be in the gym in the looks department or simply their feeling. Doctor Rand seems to push an AI from the get go on TRT. I tend to agree more with the video you shared that the AI does more harm than good. However prostate and breast cancer re fueled by estrogen.

 

[Systemlord]

I tend to agree more with the video you shared that the AI does more harm than good. However prostate and breast cancer re fueled by estrogen.

If you develop prostate cancer, most prostate cancers aren’t fueled by testosterone or estrogen. In fact the data shows low hormones causes more aggressive prostrate cancers and high androgens is protective against prostate cancer.

Impact of Low Free Testosterone on Prostate Cancer

 

[Deuce]

If you develop prostate cancer, most prostate cancers aren’t fueled by testosterone or estrogen. In fact the data shows low hormones causes more aggressive prostrate cancers and high androgens is protective against prostate cancer.

Impact of Low Free Testosterone on Prostate Cancer

That I'd have to disagree with. My brother is a oncologist with Sloan and Kettering. You can find studies stating both opinions but in his experience it absolutely does. Discontinuation of testosterone, when someone has prostate cancer is the 1st thing they do, because testosterone fuels prostate cancer. Just as estrogen fuels breast cancer.... This is why anastrazole was created as a breast cancer treatment.

 

[Deuce]

There’s a difference between TRT and performance enhancement. Two very different worlds.

Jack a man’s testosterone supraphysiological and drugs are needed to counter side effects. This is where the 3 mg AI per week comes from. A replacement, normal testosterone level most of the time requires no AI, unless of course you’re very high body fat and inflamed.

I hear what you're saying but in my instance, my level of e2 nearly quadrupled at trt dose. And I'm not of high weight....nor do I have anymore inflammation post trt vs prior.

As I point out, my level has always been supraphysiological. The top of the range is under 900. I've been 1000 to 1500 plus, on fairly low doses of cypionate.

It concerns me you're making generalized statements that most people don't have to. Not everyone metabolizes the same way. Quite obviously my body tends to convert testosterone to estrogen hence my e2 level raising nearly 400%

This is why labs are important and you don't just go off feelings

 

[Systemlord]

My brother is a oncologist with Sloan and Kettering.

You should look up Dr. Abraham Morgentaler, a urology professor at Harvard. No one knows more about testosterone and prostate cancer than he.

 

[Deuce]

You should look up Dr. Abraham Morgentaler, a urology professor at Harvard. No one knows more about testosterone and prostate cancer than he.

I'll be happy to take a look. But remember professors are not in the field.

I have not heard of any Business professors that are millionaires, and running sucessfull businesses. Nor Have any of the most successful businessmen in the world been known to take business classes in college

Professors simply read and teach curriculum that's written by those in the field. They simply regurgitate what findings scientists and physicians document from experience and research in the field ... and disseminate it to students.

The protocol has always been to cease testosterone therapy when prostate cancer is diagnosed. If it didn't fuel it, you wouldn't do that.


And both responses you've ignored the breast cancer/estrogen statement.

 

[Systemlord]

I'll be happy to take a look. But remember professors are not in the field.

Dr. Abraham Morgentaler was a urologist and became associate clinical professor of surgery of urology at Harvard school, is the past-president of the Androgen Society. Dr. Abraham Morgentaler educates other doctors and is world-renowned.

Dr. Abraham Morgentaler is the leading international figure in the fields of testosterone therapy, prostate cancer, and male sexuality.

So I don’t think Dr. Abraham Morgentaler is worried about money or whether or not he is, was successful.

 

[Deuce]

Dr. Abraham Morgentaler was a urologist and became associate clinical professor of surgery of urology at Harvard school, is the past-president of the Androgen Society. Dr. Abraham Morgentaler educates other doctors and is world-renowned.

Dr. Abraham Morgentaler is the leading international figure in the fields of testosterone therapy, prostate cancer, and male sexuality.

So I don’t think Dr. Abraham Morgentaler is worried about money or whether or not he is, was successful.

Let's email him and ask him if he would work for free.
I'd take that bet with you

I think you missed my point. If you ask 10 different people who the authority is on a particular topic you'll get 10 different answers. There's thousands of professors....... I'm open to hear anyone's view but it doesn't mean their word is gospel. Professors are the last "professionals" to get new information .....

 

[Systemlord]

Excelmale has a lot of excellent videos under the “videos tab”. I’ll provide the top two I think you’ll enjoy.

 

[Fortunate]

I’d like to weigh in just a tad, here. I agree with @Deuce’s excellent point that lab values do matter, even without symptoms. However, I think part of the challenge with estrogen in males is that well-established and accepted values may, or may not exist, in particular in the testosterone treatment population. Thus, the conundrum we find ourselves in posting numerous threads about the topic. I fall into the camp that both lab values and symptoms should guide decision making, but would probably emphasize symptoms over lab values with respect to estrogen management.

In my limited ability to make meaningful observations, I suspect I aromatize more than average, and that high estrogen levels make me feel crappy. At times, I have had myself convinced that high estrogen levels, or at least suboptimal testosterone to estrogen ratios, are the culprit to my years of struggling with TRT. In reality, I suspect it’s not that simple.

I generally tolerate anastrozole, and I have myself convinced that I feel better after taking it. But, there are times when I’ve also felt a tad crappy after taking it.

My two cents: if your doctor advises you to take it, and it successfully brings your levels to a normal range, and does not bother you, or create new, unwanted symptoms, I think it’s reasonable to use it as long as you are following labs and symptoms closely.