Dosing to prevent ups and downs

[GeauxBears]

I have searched a bit around here and other places and have found quite a few suggestions, but thought I would ask specifically on my circumstance to see if anyone has any thoughts.

On TRT+HCG+AI with the following regimen:

Mon & Thurs
100mg T (total of 200mg/wk)
500iu HCG (total of 1,000 iu/wk)
0.125mg anastrozole

My trough numbers (taken Thursday morning before injection) are:

Total T - 900s
Free T - 25
E2 Sensitive - 53

Couple of things I'm trying to work out with my doctor. First, I can feel the high E2 through bloating, weight gain and ED, and he is recommending moving to the same AI dosage but EOD instead of twice a week.

Second, I am dealing with "ups and downs" throughout the week and was curious if splitting the dose into more frequent injections, less T/HCG would make sense to help this problem (and perhaps even help the high E2 issue?).

Any thoughts? Should I inject EOD at half the dosage? I am injecting subQ btw.

 

[Hammer]

I switched from one injection of 80mg per week to 40 mg twice per week and it has proven to be very beneficial. My hematocrit levels are much better as well as a complete subsidence of any flushing and hot flashes. I also changed my arimidex from 0.5 mg twice per week to EOD using .25mg (breaking the tablet into quarters isn't the easiest thing to do). I don't use HCG. My levels are virtually the same using both methods at about 85% of max range. I don't know the scale of your your blood tests or how many days after your injection the blood draw was taken. If you had your levels checked on the day before injecting, I'm guessing that your levels are well above normal range at the 1st half of the week. This may be the reason your E2 levels are elevated and are causing the swings that you referenced.

 

[GeauxBears]

Thanks Hammer. The blood draws were taken on Thursday morning prior to injection on a Monday & Thursday injection schedule...so as close to trough as I can get them to be.

That brings up another question. What is an ideal trough level to strive for (obviously including the way I feel in the analysis)?

 

[ERO]

There is no ideal level in terms of a set number - it is different for each individual. That is a big mistake we see often on the forum - guys will start chasing a certain number on a blood test and just spin in circles.

 

[PAUL-E]

There is no ideal level in terms of a set number - it is different for each individual. That is a big mistake we see often on the forum - guys will start chasing a certain number on a blood test and just spin in circles.

I agree lets say you feel good at total test @ 700 and free within range and you don't need a AI and hematocrit is good some people want the 1000+ just for the number but why up the dose need to have a AI and worry about possibly donating and more side effects just for a number.
Many report feeling better on lower more frequent dosing with less estrogen conversion but I myself cant bring myself to inject more than 2x a week.

 

[Hammer]

I agree with ERO. Each individual is unique and responds differently to various hormone levels. If I recall, testosterone has a half life of about 8 days so at twice per week your trough is probably down 25% from its peak. I would think most men feel good somewhere between 700 and 900. I've experimented with different levels and the best I ever felt was actually at 615 when I was using clomid with hcg. I had just come off testosterone therapy when my levels were 1200 - 1300. The doc thought I might be able to reset my system with clomid and hcg and eventually go off TRT. As fate would have it, once I got off the hcg and clomid, my levels went back to the 300 level. It can take a while to get honed in on your sweet spot. Good luck!

 

[Vettester Chris]

OK, here's one angle to consider. I'm of the opinion that E2 can and will be a problem (most of the time) when you step outside the homeostasis gate, call it the balance or goldielocks zone, where your body is comfortable with, and outside it you start seeing these issues with E2 and feeling the ups and downs.

I think your protocol is possibly causing a little unsteadiness throughout the week, based on your injection regiment, results, and what you described for your current well being.

What if you aimed to get your Free Test down in the 16 to 20 range, which would require a total serum maybe in the 750 range. This might require lowering your HCG to 750iu, pin SMALLER amounts 250iu 3x week. Lower your Test Cyp to 160mg, pin 80mg 2x per week. Maybe look at taking HCG the day before your injection.

Administer AI just long enough to get at a level /range that works for you, then STOP. This might require running labs around 4 weeks after changing, and if E2 has lowered and is GOOD, stop and recheck in another 4 weeks. If you're not needing to administer an AI then you're seeing better balance, and that alone should help with your well being.

I just suggest something in these lines, as it is exactly what I had to go through back in my days of getting my program settled out. Plus, on HCG, sometimes administering a bit too much can lead to more aromatization via intra-testicular, which is virtually impossible to tackle with an AI. The absolute worse case with my trying something in these lines is that you don't like it, thus you can go right back to any protocol you want. Talk with your physician and give it some thought! I'll bet a protein shake that you will be reporting some different comments in a few months if you implement something in the lines of this ...

 

[JPB]

This is the mantra here - take your weekly dose and pin it every other day. That will reduce the swings and bring estrogen down. You can probably lower your weekly dose on such a protocol. And with less estrogen conversion, your T levels may go up on a lower total dose.

 

[GeauxBears]

Thanks very much guys. I will discuss all of these suggestions with my doctor at our next appointment. He is very good and knowledgable in these areas and I think he'll be receptive to making some changes. I'll post back in a few weeks after making the changes and getting bloodwork to see where I am. Thanks again.

 

[Vettester Chris]

Excellent, look forward to seeing how it all turns out!!

 

[GeauxBears]

Hi Chris,

My doctor is supportive of your approach. What would the weekly schedule look like for this protocol in your mind?

 

[Vettester Chris]

OK, there's a myriad of ways and methods to go about something like this ... If it were me, maybe something on the lines of this ... (THIS AND ANY SUGGESTION SHOULD BE COMPLETELY REVIEWED BY A QUALIFIED PHYSICIAN BEFORE PROCEEDING)

Sunday ......................250iu HCG
Monday (AM) ............. 80mg Cypionate
Tuesday .....................0.125 mg AI
Wednesday ................ 250iu HCG
Thursday (Noon) ......... 80mg Cypionate
Friday ....................... 0.125mg AI, and 250iu HCG
Saturday ................... Take a break LOL

This is based on spreading it all out most of the week. Many will take their Cyp and HCG on the same day too, and then just administer the AI 24 hours thereafter. This would yield a 20% drop in your cypionate administration, and a 25% reduction in HCG.

On the AI, I'm not a BIG fan with taking too much, and only if it's needed. In your case, I am going to simply suggest talking to your doctor about bumping it a tad to 0.25 per week (split twice). That by no means is an aggressive dose, and re-take your labs in 4-to-6 weeks. Maybe aim to get the E2S somewhere in the 20's, and of course base it on how you feel, libido, etc. You might be able to put the AI away at that point ... It might take another set of labs, but at this point you should be in the stages of fine tuning your protocol to work in conjunction with your body's natural rhythm process. Again, talk it all through with the doctor, I'm sure you will get it going in the right direction.