Dosage and Injection Schedules - Trade Offs

[S1W]

Frequently on the forum we see a lot of discussions about the possible benefits of different injection schedules. For example, some guys claim to be able to lower E2 and HCT on more frequent injection protocols. Other guys state that overall lower dosage, regardless of protocol, makes them feel better, etc.

I'd like to discuss the trade offs switching between different protocols, aside from the obvious ones like having to inject more/less frequently, etc. Basically, there is often a focus on negative side effects that we want to address when switching from one protocol to another - are there positives that we may be leaving behind too? One example in particular that I'm curious about:

For guys that have TT/FT trough levels in the upper normal ranges, depending on protocol and SHBG, there is a decent chance that peak levels are high out of range for part of the week. Suppose these guys were to switch to a more frequent protocol that smooths out the peaks and valleys. With the new protocol, the guy now has peak and trough levels that are both in the upper range of normal, never going above, and say E2 goes down a bit.

Would a guy in this scenario experience reduced muscle building capacity compared to when peaks were high out of range and E2 was higher, or would muscle building capacity be better with lower TT/FT levels yet also lower E2? Or would it make no difference at all?

Anyone have experience with this, or other things that you found didn't work as well for you on a particular protocol even if you achieved your goal of addressing whatever side effect you wanted to address?

 

[madman]

Frequently on the forum we see a lot of discussions about the possible benefits of different injection schedules. For example, some guys claim to be able to lower E2 and HCT on more frequent injection protocols. Other guys state that overall lower dosage, regardless of protocol, makes them feel better, etc.

I'd like to discuss the trade offs switching between different protocols, aside from the obvious ones like having to inject more/less frequently, etc. Basically, there is often a focus on negative side effects that we want to address when switching from one protocol to another - are there positives that we may be leaving behind too? One example in particular that I'm curious about:

For guys that have TT/FT trough levels in the upper normal ranges, depending on protocol and SHBG, there is a decent chance that peak levels are high out of range for part of the week. Suppose these guys were to switch to a more frequent protocol that smooths out the peaks and valleys. With the new protocol, the guy now has peak and trough levels that are both in the upper range of normal, never going above, and say E2 goes down a bit.

Would a guy in this scenario experience reduced muscle building capacity compared to when peaks were high out of range and E2 was higher, or would muscle building capacity be better with lower TT/FT levels yet also lower E2? Or would it make no difference at all?

Anyone have experience with this, or other things that you found didn't work as well for you on a particular protocol even if you achieved your goal of addressing whatever side effect you wanted to address?

We are talking trt here using therapeutic doses to achieve mid-normal or high-normal physiological testosterone levels (TT/freeT) in order to relieve/improve symptoms of low t and although one will see improvements in body composition (muscle growth/fat loss) depending on diet/training and most importantly ones genetics the muscle gain will be average at best.

As long as ones total t/free t levels are in a healthy range whether mid-normal or high-normal of the physiological range along with having stable testosterone levels throughout the week and one is following a proper diet/training protocol than ones protocol (injection frequency/dose as in trt dose) should make absolutely no difference.

The short term supra-physiological peaks one may get from injecting less frequently as in once weekly or possibly every 3.5 days will be minimal as in order to see significant gains in muscle/strength one would need testosterone levels to be in the supra-physiological range as in 1800+.

Even with trt if ones protocol (less frequent injections using higher dose as in trt dose) may result in supra-physiological peaks 1200-1400 ng/dl those levels are in no way comparable to one using steroid doses 250-600mg/week which would result in supra-physiological testosterone levels 2000-4000 ng/dl which would allow one to make significant gains in muscle/strength.

 

[Vince]

Frequently on the forum we see a lot of discussions about the possible benefits of different injection schedules. For example, some guys claim to be able to lower E2 and HCT on more frequent injection protocols. Other guys state that overall lower dosage, regardless of protocol, makes them feel better, etc.

I'd like to discuss the trade offs switching between different protocols, aside from the obvious ones like having to inject more/less frequently, etc. Basically, there is often a focus on negative side effects that we want to address when switching from one protocol to another - are there positives that we may be leaving behind too? One example in particular that I'm curious about:

For guys that have TT/FT trough levels in the upper normal ranges, depending on protocol and SHBG, there is a decent chance that peak levels are high out of range for part of the week. Suppose these guys were to switch to a more frequent protocol that smooths out the peaks and valleys. With the new protocol, the guy now has peak and trough levels that are both in the upper range of normal, never going above, and say E2 goes down a bit.

Would a guy in this scenario experience reduced muscle building capacity compared to when peaks were high out of range and E2 was higher, or would muscle building capacity be better with lower TT/FT levels yet also lower E2? Or would it make no difference at all?

Anyone have experience with this, or other things that you found didn't work as well for you on a particular protocol even if you achieved your goal of addressing whatever side effect you wanted to address?

That's a really interesting question. There was a time I injected 100mg of testosterone twice a week and 500iu of HCG twice a week, a very high amount. I believe I felt my best a 20 mg of testosterone daily and 500iu of HCG twice a week. My present protocol is 16 mg of T daily and 500iu of HCG twice a week, I'm having killer workouts on this protocol and feel good mentally but I believe some would say that my T levels are too high. Here's my latest labs.

Vince's testosterone panel from 6/12/2018

My protocol is 16 mg of testosterone cypionate daily, 500 iu of HCG twice a week, 25 mg of DHEA and no AI.

testosterone serum 1117 ng/dL range 264 - 916
Free T 30.3 pg/mL range 6.6 - 18.1
DHEA - Sulfate 347.3 range 48.9 - 344.2
Estradiol, Sensitive 29.5 range 8.0 - 35.0
SHBG 48.8 range 19.3 - 76.4
HCT 47.9 range 37.5 - 51.0

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?15162-Vince-s-testosterone-panel-from-6-12-2018
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[FeelingLost]

Over the past 18 months I have been stable(steady state min 2 months) at 630, 350 and 1175 troughs. My pre TRT TT was 180-ng/dL and my SHGB was 33.
The difference between 180 and 350 was amazing however at 630 and 1175 I did not feel stronger. At 1175 I was super horny to the point it bothered me. HCT and E2 became an issue to deal with.

My current TT/FT PEAK is 950/39 I don't know the trough.
An since this mini bloodtest I have dropped my T dose again because I know a FT of 39 is going to jack with my HCT
The biggest thing I have noticed is how fast I recover from activities be it workouts at the gm or playing football with my grandson.
Even at 350 I was losing body fat and building muscle.

I have always been on 3 shots a week M/W/F I guess because of my SHGB It started out at 33 and is now 24.
I would love to drop back to two times a week. I plan on asking if I can next consult.

 

[HealthMan]

I have tried E3.5 and daily injections. To be honest I didn’t feel much of a difference. So the hassle of daily injections wasn’t worth it for me. However daily injections did lower my estradiol but not to the point i could completely stop anastrozole. I am very sensitive to estradiol and need to keep it in the low-mid 20s otherwise i get gyno. So daily didn’t make sense to me. Also daily jacked up my HCT big time.
In terms of muscle building no difference at all for me. My FT has been anywhere from low 20s to high 30s and no difference whatsoever.