changing up my protocol... thoughts?

[Justin Chile Farrar]

thinking of switching back to 5g compounded gel from shots.

I've been doing 80mg of test cyp a week and my levels are good, I always absorbed the gels well, but wanted to see what the difference was with injections.

Here's what I'm thinking for switching back:

Applying 150mg of gel 5 days per week to give a total of 75mg assuming 10% absorption. Then on the two "off" days I'm thinking of injecting 500 IU of HCG.

Has anyone used or heard of a protocol like this? This will enable me to get close to the 80mg of Test I've been getting and I'm thinking by using HCG without having applied gel on those days I might get a better LH response.

...Let me know what you guys think

 

[Gene Devine]

If you can obtain optimal serum levels with TD's than it's six of one and a half a dozen of another...in other words the effects physiologically will pretty much be the same.

However, application protocols are vastly different.

Injections are easy, one or two quick shots a week and you're done with it.

With TD's it's an everyday protocol with risks of transferal especially if you have children or a girl in your life can be a small cause for concern.

TD's can increase DHT to higher levels than injections so if you have higher levels of DHT and experience any of the neg symptoms this may way into your decision as well.

With TD's there are no "days off" it's an everyday application to ensure serum level stay the same.

To me, if TD's absorb well, it's a simple matter of choice.

 

[Bass]

^^^^ perfectly explained! and if shots bother you try SQ injection, no pain!

 

[Vettester Chris]

Good advise above. Also, good to see you, Bass!

 

[Bass]

thanks Chris! sorry been very busy otherwise I would be here more often...

 

[Cooper]

Interesting ... I am on test cyp as well but used gels before that with very good success. Numbers great now with injections but always tempted to switch back to gels. I actually felt like I had more energy and was able to stay leaner with gels which I attributed to the higher DHT levels with gels.

Curious as to why you are now considering switching back to gels if your levels are good on injections?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Testosterone gels and creams are still the number one option in testosterone replacement therapy. They are convenient and can be safely used to avoid transference to a female or a child. However, some men do not reach optimum levels of total and free testosterone while using them. For those men, switching to injections may be the way to go.

If gels worked great on me, I would be using them for sure! No matter how easy your injection technique is with testosterone (or if you are using shallow IM or subcutaneous injections of low doses), nothing compares to a daily application to something that equates to a deodorant.

I know several of my friends who are doing great on compounded testosterone creams (2 to 5 percent). Some need the extra help that hcG provides, though.

 

[Bass]

nothing compares to a daily application to something that equates to a deodorant.

now there is a good idea! heck if they come up with a testosterone deodorant I'll be the first to try it. two birds in one stone!

 

[DHM]

Axiron is pretty close.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

yeah...axiron

 

[Justin Chile Farrar]

Interesting ... I am on test cyp as well but used gels before that with very good success. Numbers great now with injections but always tempted to switch back to gels. I actually felt like I had more energy and was able to stay leaner with gels which I attributed to the higher DHT levels with gels.

Curious as to why you are now considering switching back to gels if your levels are good on injections?

Cooper,

Same here. I just switched to injections because I was curious and wanted to give them a try. I'm considering switching back because I feel like even though I'm only on 80mg shots I feel like I might be getting too much testosterone. With gels dosed at 10g's daily that would equate to 70 mg per week (I believe, someone correct me if I'm wrong) also I'm considering going back to gels for reasons Nelson and Gene have specified and the fact that the levels are more stable across the day. I've been kind of moody and angry on shots and I'm not sure if that's because of the peaks or what not but my mood seemed more stable on gels. I was just concerned I wasn't getting enough Test on gels due to things like sweating and humidity so I wanted to try a "for sure" thing like injections, but it's been proving pretty difficult with the injections and I'm getting kind of tired of it. I feel like even at 80mg of injections the peaks might be too much for me still. The one thing I've noticed on injections though is that I build muscle a lot easier. I think that's just from being on more though, because before I switched doctors my original doctor had me switching back and forth from gels to hcg day to day. So, I'd be doing gel on monday, hcg with no gel tuesday, gel on wednesday, hcg with no gel thursday... etc. that's why I was asking about doing JUST hcg twice a week with no gel and if anybody had heard of that before. With that protocol I was only on about 60mg of test per week. I'm not sure if that makes sense or not. But that's why i'm thinking about going back to gels and trying them everyday with hcg either low dose everyday (as Gene Suggested) or 3x per week at 250iu, to see how that makes me feel, instead of applying gel 4x per week and injecting hcg 3x per week like I was doing before I switched to injections..

Basically to recap I like the idea that gels are more stable but I was concerned about absorption and curious about shots. Also on injections I've been experiencing more nipple sensitivity and it scares the crap out of me, I take .5mg arimidex every three days and even with estradiol at 15 and normal prolactin this still happens.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Cooper,

Basically to recap I like the idea that gels are more stable but I was concerned about absorption and curious about shots. Also on injections I've been experiencing more nipple sensitivity and it scares the crap out of me, I take .5mg arimidex every three days and even with estradiol at 15 and normal prolactin this still happens.

Let us know how it goes with the switch. Some guys feel good on gels, especially when used with HCG. Don't forget to have blood work before you switch and then 4-6 weeks later.

 

[Justin Chile Farrar]

Awesome, thanks Nelson, will do. Also, I wanted to ask how long should I wait to workout after applying the gel? I forget.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Most absorption of testosterone in testosterone gels happens during the first 4 hours. The 1.62 % Androgel package insert says this about showering after testosterone gel application and using moisturizers/sun block:

"Effect of showering

In a randomized, 3-way (3 treatment periods without washout period) crossover study in 24 hypogonadal men, the effect of showering on testosterone exposure was assessed after once daily application of AndroGel 1.62% 81 mg to upper arms/shoulders for 7 days in each treatment period. On the 7th day of each treatment period, hypogonadal men took a shower with soap and water at either 2, 6, or 10 hours after drug application. The effect of showering at 2 or 6 hours post-dose on Day 7 resulted in 13% and 12% decreases in mean Cavg, respectively, compared to Day 6 when no shower was taken after drug application.

Showering at 10 hours after drug application had no effect on bioavailability. The amount of testosterone remaining in the outer layers of the skin at the application site on the 7th day was assessed using a tape stripping procedure and was reduced by at least 80% after showering 2-10 hours post-dose compared to on the 6th day when no shower was taken after drug application.

Effect of sunscreen or moisturizing lotion on absorption of testosterone

In a randomized, 3-way (3 treatment periods without washout period) crossover study in 18 hypogonadal males, the effect of applying a moisturizing lotion or a sunscreen on the absorption of testosterone was evaluated with the upper arms/shoulders as application sites. For 7 days, moisturizing lotion or sunscreen (SPF 50) was applied daily to the AndroGel 1.62% application site 1 hour after the application of AndroGel 1.62% 40.5 mg. Application of moisturizing lotion increased mean testosterone Cavg and Cmax by 14% and 17%, respectively, compared to AndroGel 1.62% administered alone. Application of sunscreen increased mean testosterone Cavg and Cmax by 8% and 13%, respectively, compared to AndroGel 1.62% applied alone. "

This graph shows how applying on shoulders (treatment B) gets blood levels of testosterone higher than applying testosterone gel on abdominal area (treatment A). It is probably related to the lower amount of fat in the shoulders that makes it easier for testosterone to get to the blood stream.




Message:

1- Applying on shoulders gets more testosterone absorbed by abdominals.
2- Showering or sweating after 4 hours is OK.
3- Using moisturizers or sunblock after applying testosterone gels increases absorption by 8-13 percent.

 

[Cooper]

Cooper,

Same here. I just switched to injections because I was curious and wanted to give them a try. I'm considering switching back

Justin - did you end up switching back to gels and if so how is it going?