Cannot increase my IGF1 even when using Serostim

[Bubbs]

Apologies if this is the wrong forum but I'm hoping someone here may have some insight since none of my trt doctors have been able to suggest anything

For a decade I've been using hgh and tried various peptides, and my IGF1 has never moved above 100 in that whole time.

After 4 months of serostim use the number did not budge, I have taken multiple gh blood serum tests after injecting and my gh serum numbers have been exactly what they should be but my body simply isn't converting it into IGF1

My liver is fine, I don't drink or use any kind of liver converted drugs. I've tried taking dhea with the hgh shots in the hope that the boost in e2/etc might help my liver convert the hgh but nothing.

Since this is still a very fringe area of medicine I'm not able to order any blood tests to see if I'm missing an enzyme or something, so I have to assume this is some genetic issue. I also have keratosis of hopf which affects collagen to a degree but have no idea if that's connected.

Even if no one can help raise my IGF1, would there be any benefits from the increased gh serum levels alone? Hgh is monstrously expensive to use legally so I don't want to feel like I'm just throwing away a car payment in something that isnt helping.

Thanks in advance

 

[swoops36]

How much HGH were you using daily?

 

[Bubbs]

Between 2 and 6iu a day, I've tried every dosing time/regime, IM and subq, nothing worked. This was right from the pharmacy but even then I ran the GH serum test a couple times a year and it was always as expected

I try to sleep 8 hours a night, take melatonin 20mg and 5htp before bed, I've tried dosing before bed and in the daytime but no results

Every peptide has had the same result.

I'm on 200mg test cyp TRT, sometimes subq usually IM 2x a week with slim pins. I've been leaner in the past but am basically a 45 year old aging bodybuilder who still has 18" arms and abs year round. Nutrition is pretty good, mostly animal protein and fat and greens, 50g carbs a day max most days.

I take niacin, multi vitamin and drug wise lisinopril 10mg a day and that's it. My bloodwork has always been fine,apart from the slightly lower EgFR that comes with being larger and eating a lot of cooked meat.

Edit- my E2 is always high normal but I never really used AIs. I also give blood once a month to keep my annoying hematocrit levels down

I just don't get it

 

[MarcoFL]

What brand HGH were you using? I assume doctor prescribed and good US pharmacy?

 

[MarcoFL]

Between 2 and 6iu a day, I've tried every dosing time/regime, IM and subq, nothing worked. This was right from the pharmacy but even then I ran the GH serum test a couple times a year and it was always as expected

I try to sleep 8 hours a night, take melatonin 20mg and 5htp before bed, I've tried dosing before bed and in the daytime but no results

Every peptide has had the same result.

I'm on 200mg test cyp TRT, sometimes subq usually IM 2x a week with slim pins. I've been leaner in the past but am basically a 45 year old aging bodybuilder who still has 18" arms and abs year round. Nutrition is pretty good, mostly animal protein and fat and greens, 50g carbs a day max most days.

I take niacin, multi vitamin and drug wise lisinopril 10mg a day and that's it. My bloodwork has always been fine,apart from the slightly lower EgFR that comes with being larger and eating a lot of cooked meat.

Edit- my E2 is always high normal but I never really used AIs. I also give blood once a month to keep my annoying hematocrit levels down

I just don't get it

you give blood once a month?? what is your hematocrit level?

 

[Cataceous]

I have no idea if taking them is safe or desirable, but there are several IGF-1 proteins available as research chemicals, and perhaps through medical channels as well. Example.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Get your IGF1 blood level tested after 1-2 hours of injecting. IGF1 quickly comes down a few hours after injecting GH.

If you really want to see if you have an IGF1 issue, take ibutamoren and see.

 

[Bubbs]

Get your IGF1 blood level tested after 1-2 hours of injecting. IGF1 quickly comes down a few hours after injecting GH.

If you really want to see if you have an IGF1 issue, take ibutamoren and see.

Thank you for the reply Nelson, I'll try that- I had assumed IGF1 was relatively stable based on what my trt doc told me but that makes sense.

I donate every month (usually) because I tend to run sticky blood and want to keep it under 50, I start getting a very red face and feeling "odd" if it creeps much over 50

Hgh was serostim directly from Cvs, so definitely not counterfeit! The batch numbers checked out on their app just to make sure.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Serostim comes in 6 mg vials. How many mg per day were you using?
Have you ever tested your ferritin?

 

[MarcoFL]

Thank you for the reply Nelson, I'll try that- I had assumed IGF1 was relatively stable based on what my trt doc told me but that makes sense.

I donate every month (usually) because I tend to run sticky blood and want to keep it under 50, I start getting a very red face and feeling "odd" if it creeps much over 50

Hgh was serostim directly from Cvs, so definitely not counterfeit! The batch numbers checked out on their app just to make sure.

The donations seem like a crazy amount! I would want full iron panel before trying that. I donated twice took a full year to recover. I let my HCT float between 48-52. You should consult with a doctor if you have not and full iron panel.

 

[Bubbs]

Serostim comes in 6 mg vials. How many mg per day were you using?
Have you ever tested your ferritin?

Hey Nelson, each serostim was about 18 iu so I'd add .9cc water and divide so each 0.1 cc inject was about 2iu

My ferretin was actually low normal last time, likely from the frequent donations. Can that affect IGF1 conversion? I'd read something about 5α-Reductase being involved but nothing that really indicates a direct correlation.

I have my prostate measured ultrasonically every couple of years and it's way at the low end for my age,my urologist says it's more like a 20 somethings size wise which is fine with me, but maybe that's tied in since I also always test out very low on DHT even with a healthy TRT dose

Other health wise,I haven't had a cardiac stress test for 5 years (last one was"awesome" to quote the cardiologist) but need another one since it's been a very stressful 5 years work and personal life wise. My bloodwork is always fine,nothing interesting there other than the low DHT

 

[lukas_az]

drop the lisinopril. poison you don't need.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I would not donate more frequently than every 3 months. I would get this panel to look at my ferritin and iron stores:

Complete Anemia Panel Test Guide: 18 Essential Tests

This 18 test anemia panel includes all tests needed to diagnose the degree and cause of anemia including a CBC panel (red blood cells, hemoglobin, etc), Ferritin, Iron, Total Iron Binding Capacity, Folate, and Vitamin B-12

www.discountedlabs.com

I would take an iron supplement plus vitamin C.

Anemia can decrease IGF-1

"Effect of anemia on GH-IGF-I axis in children, adolescents and adults

Isguven et al. studied 25 prepubertal children with IDA and 25 healthy controls. IGF-1, ghrelin, and insulin levels were significantly lower in the ID group (56). They suggested that low ghrelin and insulin levels might be the cause of the appetite loss in IDA. In addition, low Ghrelin (a GH secretagogue) may decrease GH and subsequently IGF-I secretion and related growth delay both to low IGF-1 secretion and appetite loss (56).

In 40 infants and young children with IDA (Hb = 8.2±1.2 g/dL) treated for 6 months with iron therapy, circulating IGF-I increased significantly, along with acceleration of GV and increased length SDS and BMI (56).

In adolescents, Choi and Kim reported significant correlation between Hb concentration and serum iron on the one hand and IGF-I concentration on the other hand (57).

In a large cohort (n= 1,093) of adults the association of IGF-I with Hb concentration was studied. Anemic adults exhibited significantly lower IGF-I compared with non-anemic controls (58, 59)."

I would test by IGF-1 one to two hours after injection.

Insulin Growth Factor 1 IGF1 Test

IGF-1 is a hormone produced by the liver and other tissues which affects growth-promoting activities and glucose metabolism. Because IGF-1 is related to the production and secretion of growth hormone (HGH), physicians may use this measurement to assess gr

www.discountedlabs.com

2 IU of Serostim may be too low to achieve considerable IGF-1 increases. I would use 6 IU.

I would also supplement with citrulline.

L-citrulline-malate influence over branched chain amino acid utilization during exercise - PubMed

Exhaustive exercise induces disturbances in metabolic homeostasis which can result in amino acid catabolism and limited L-arginine availability. Oral L-citrulline supplementation raises plasma L-arginine concentration and augments NO-dependent signalling. Our aim was to evaluate the effects of...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Supplementation of 6g citrulline prior to a prolonged exercise test was associated with an increase in urea (27.1-30.4%) and nitrite (indicative of nitric oxide) and appeared to attenuate the rise in urate. Growth hormone increased 66.8% after exercise"

I hope this helps.

 

[madhacker]

Apologies if this is the wrong forum but I'm hoping someone here may have some insight since none of my trt doctors have been able to suggest anything

For a decade I've been using hgh and tried various peptides, and my IGF1 has never moved above 100 in that whole time.

After 4 months of serostim use the number did not budge, I have taken multiple gh blood serum tests after injecting and my gh serum numbers have been exactly what they should be but my body simply isn't converting it into IGF1

My liver is fine, I don't drink or use any kind of liver converted drugs. I've tried taking dhea with the hgh shots in the hope that the boost in e2/etc might help my liver convert the hgh but nothing.

Since this is still a very fringe area of medicine I'm not able to order any blood tests to see if I'm missing an enzyme or something, so I have to assume this is some genetic issue. I also have keratosis of hopf which affects collagen to a degree but have no idea if that's connected.

Even if no one can help raise my IGF1, would there be any benefits from the increased gh serum levels alone? Hgh is monstrously expensive to use legally so I don't want to feel like I'm just throwing away a car payment in something that isnt helping.

Thanks in advance

If you are unable to stimulate the liver to produce IGF-1 from GH, you may consider IGF-1 therapy. Use a combination of exogenous growth hormone and IGF-1 to correct GH and IGF-1 deficiency. IGF-1 produces roughly 60% of the beneficial effects of growth hormone so you may consider correcting both deficiencies.

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[lukas_az]

HGH is pretty expensive. Hard to get exact estimates, but seems like 1000usd/months in USA, and 400 in Mexico. anybody heard of cheaper options?

 

[madhacker]

I would not donate more frequently than every 3 months. I would get this panel to look at my ferritin and iron stores:

Complete Anemia Panel Test Guide: 18 Essential Tests

This 18 test anemia panel includes all tests needed to diagnose the degree and cause of anemia including a CBC panel (red blood cells, hemoglobin, etc), Ferritin, Iron, Total Iron Binding Capacity, Folate, and Vitamin B-12

www.discountedlabs.com

I would take an iron supplement plus vitamin C.

Anemia can decrease IGF-1

"Effect of anemia on GH-IGF-I axis in children, adolescents and adults

Isguven et al. studied 25 prepubertal children with IDA and 25 healthy controls. IGF-1, ghrelin, and insulin levels were significantly lower in the ID group (56). They suggested that low ghrelin and insulin levels might be the cause of the appetite loss in IDA. In addition, low Ghrelin (a GH secretagogue) may decrease GH and subsequently IGF-I secretion and related growth delay both to low IGF-1 secretion and appetite loss (56).

In 40 infants and young children with IDA (Hb = 8.2±1.2 g/dL) treated for 6 months with iron therapy, circulating IGF-I increased significantly, along with acceleration of GV and increased length SDS and BMI (56).

In adolescents, Choi and Kim reported significant correlation between Hb concentration and serum iron on the one hand and IGF-I concentration on the other hand (57).

In a large cohort (n= 1,093) of adults the association of IGF-I with Hb concentration was studied. Anemic adults exhibited significantly lower IGF-I compared with non-anemic controls (58, 59)."

I would test by IGF-1 one to two hours after injection.

Insulin Growth Factor 1 IGF1 Test

IGF-1 is a hormone produced by the liver and other tissues which affects growth-promoting activities and glucose metabolism. Because IGF-1 is related to the production and secretion of growth hormone (HGH), physicians may use this measurement to assess gr

www.discountedlabs.com

2 IU of Serostim may be too low to achieve considerable IGF-1 increases. I would use 6 IU.

I would also supplement with citrulline.

L-citrulline-malate influence over branched chain amino acid utilization during exercise - PubMed

Exhaustive exercise induces disturbances in metabolic homeostasis which can result in amino acid catabolism and limited L-arginine availability. Oral L-citrulline supplementation raises plasma L-arginine concentration and augments NO-dependent signalling. Our aim was to evaluate the effects of...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Supplementation of 6g citrulline prior to a prolonged exercise test was associated with an increase in urea (27.1-30.4%) and nitrite (indicative of nitric oxide) and appeared to attenuate the rise in urate. Growth hormone increased 66.8% after exercise"

I hope this helps.

Hi Nelson,

Do you think it's safe to take pharmacological doses of growth hormone as you suggest 2mg to correct IGF-1 deficiency? Have you considered the use of IGF-1 therapy in which case?

I'm aware of growth hormone 2mg for specified indications, but for long-term HRT I think it may be safer to look at an a full panel to determine causation and other endocrine deficiencies as well as utilize IGF-1 therapy for a better clinical outcome.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

We have long term data on Serostim at 2 mg per day to reduce visceral fat in HIV. That dose is not considered "GH replacement", though.

300 mg/week of testosterone (not TRT) increased IGF-1 in this study

Testosterone administration increases insulin-like growth factor-I levels in normal men - PubMed

Although testosterone (T) administration can increase insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) when administered to hypogonadal men, no studies have examined whether this occurs in normal men. The present study was undertaken to determine if an increase in IGF-I may be part of the anabolic effect of...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Recent low dose study

Titrating Growth Hormone Dose to High-Normal IGF-1 Levels Has Beneficial Effects on Body Fat Distribution and Microcirculatory Function Despite Causing Insulin Resistance - PMC

To clarify the mechanism underlying the described U-shaped relation of both low and high levels of IGF-1 with cardiovascular disease this study explores the effect of decreasing and increasing growth hormone dose in GH deficient adults on ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov