Anti AI crowd

[Jerajera]

I tried primo for a short while and it caused significant joint pain and some prostate inflammation. I know some prefer to use DHT derivatives to control E2, but I honestly feel like microdosing anastrozole is more benign. At least, it feels healthier and more sustainable for me personally, based on my limited experience. I have yet to try another form of AI or DHT derivative. Maybe masteron or proviron would be friendlier?

I haven't felt any prostate issues or seen any on PSA test results up to 70mg/week of each Primo and Mast (separately), but that's not to say there wouldn't be any long term side effects.

I do tend to agree microdoses of Anastrozole might be healthier long term, although all of this is extremely hard to gauge with the (lack of) data we have.
Proviron is supposed to be extremely safe, I think it's the DHT derivative closest to the actual DHT mollecule.

I also wonder whether the same way Test Prop might be healthier long term by not creating sustained high levels of Test 24/7 (despite reaching higher peaks), perhaps Mast P could be healthier and less harsh on the prostate than Mast E?

I tried Anastrozole in the past and feel like I got negative side effects from even very small doses (0.0625mg) that seemed to be from the AI itself rather than purely crashed E2 levels, but to be fair I'd been so spooked by all the anti-AI hysteria that I didn't run the experiment for very long.

One of the things I'm going to try with Test P is Aromasin. I did notice that Mast and Primo had a negative impact on my lipids even with reasonable doses, and I'm not sure I feel great about that long term.

I remember you were one of the people trying to fine tune Test P at the time. What's your protocol now? Are you still on Prop? Are you happy with your current protocol and a small dose of AI?

 

[jmbb]

Here’s the problem I have with this scenario, the testosterone is sky high and the E2 is also high, yet the estrogen gets the blame instead of excess androgens.

In other words, high estrogen is by default bad and sky high testosterone isn’t!

I agree with what you're saying about the androgens being too high which could lead to excess E2, or causing the sides of too high androgens.

At the end of the day if the person can take an AI and be symptom free, that would mean that the androgen isn't causing symptoms - it's the estrogen directly.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Here’s the problem I have with this scenario, the testosterone is sky high and the E2 is also high, yet the estrogen gets the blame instead of excess androgens.

In other words, high estrogen is by default bad and sky high testosterone isn’t!

I think you're correct in that men do tend to assume everything they don't like about their TRT experience is caused by E2. If you are aware of the benefits of E2 and undesired effects high androgens can cause, this is frustrating to witness.

There is a tool that any given individual can use to determine the precise contribution of androgens and E2 to their symptoms: the AI. When you introduce the AI, you reduce or eliminate the set of symptoms caused by E2 and leave unmodified the set of symptoms caused by androgens.

As Nelson said above, once someone has experienced this firsthand, you cannot convince them otherwise that E2 isn't responsible for at least some symptoms, no matter how many studies you show them. And why would we expect anything different? Who would put faith in a study over their own direct experience? This is the same reason we are eating a carnivore diet despite nutrition science telling us we're headed for an early grave. Experiential knowledge trumps theoretical knowledge every time. What we've seen with our own eyes cannot be unseen.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I tried Anastrozole in the past and feel like I got negative side effects from even very small doses (0.0625mg) that seemed to be from the AI itself rather than purely crashed E2 levels, but to be fair I'd been so spooked by all the anti-AI hysteria that I didn't run the experiment for very long.

What did you run into for adverse effects? I've heard some suggest you can experience transient low E2 symptoms when you first dose the AI due to the speed at which E2 drops.

remember you were one of the people trying to fine tune Test P at the time. What's your protocol now? Are you still on Prop? Are you happy with your current protocol and a small dose of AI?

I've never stayed with prop very long. I'm currently on test E, 80 mg twice weekly, with .1 mg anastrazole 2x weekly. I'm pretty happy in most respects. I just switched to this from an EOD protocol, trying to see if I can improve my libido with lower frequency.

 

[jmbb]

What did you run into for adverse effects? I've heard some suggest you can experience transient low E2 symptoms when you first dose the AI due to the speed at which E2 drops.


I've never stayed with prop very long. I'm currently on test E, 80 mg twice weekly, with .1 mg anastrazole 2x weekly. I'm pretty happy in most respects. I just switched to this from an EOD protocol, trying to see if I can improve my libido with lower frequency.

How's that working for you so far? What was your baseline E2, and do you just take the anastrozole at the same time as your injection?

 

[Systemlord]

At the end of the day if the person can take an AI and be symptom free, that would mean that the androgen isn't causing symptoms - it's the estrogen directly.

That's not very scientific! Let's go with you don't know for certain it's estrogen, maybe it's indirectly related to estrogen. As stated before serotonin and prolactin are influenced by estrogen, so by lowering estrogen, the other two hormones are affected as well. High serotonin and prolactin are known to produce many of the so-called estrogen symptoms, ED, mood disturbances and fatigue.


Signs and symptoms of high serotonin include:

• Agitation or restlessness
• Insomnia
• Confusion
• Rapid heart rate and high blood pressure
• Dilated pupils
• Loss of muscle coordination or twitching muscles
• High blood pressure
• Muscle rigidity
• Heavy sweating
• Diarrhea
• Headache
• Shivering

High prolactin levels in men can cause a number of symptoms, including:

• Erectile dysfunction
• Decreased body and facial hair
• Smaller muscles
• Enlarged breasts
• Nipple discharge
• Low sex drive
• Headaches

 

[jmbb]

No indirectly, as stated before serotonin and prolactin are influenced by estrogen, so by lowering estrogen, the other two hormones are affected as well.

Estrogen has many effects independent of serotonin and prolactin. It's not an inert prohormone. You can't blame every single negative effect of E2 on its potential influence on serotonin or prolactin.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Let's go with you don't know for certain it's estrogen, maybe it's indirectly related to estrogen. As stated before serotonin and prolactin are influenced by estrogen, so by lowering estrogen, the other two hormones are affected as well. High serotonin and prolactin are known to produce many of the so-called estrogen symptoms, ED, mood disturbances and fatigue.

Let's say this is true. How does it affect your approach? Are you going to take some kind of serotonin-blocking drug to deal with the serotonin? What ramifications will that have? Will you take cabergoline long-term for the prolactin and risk developing a problem with your heart valves? Or would you simply bring the E2 level down from obscene to a level that is still high, but doesn't produce a cascade of serotonin and prolactin symptoms? We've still arrived at the same place.

 

[jmbb]

Let's say this is true. How does it affect your approach? Are you going to take some kind of serotonin-blocking drug to deal with the serotonin? What ramifications will that have? Will you take cabergoline long-term for the prolactin and risk developing a problem with your heart valves? Or would you simply bring the E2 level down from obscene to a level that is still high, but doesn't produce a cascade of serotonin and prolactin symptoms? We've still arrived at the same place.

This is exactly what I was about to add to my response - just to add that's IF the estrogen causes elevated prolactin/serotonin. Even when my E2 is skyrocketed my prolactin sits in the middle of the range. It's also impossible to test serotonin levels in the brain. Well said.

 

[DixieWrecked]

Estrogen has many effects independent of serotonin and prolactin. It's not an inert prohormone. You can't blame every single negative effect of E2 on its potential influence on serotonin or prolactin.

For me personally, besides some water retention and weak erections, I can't handle the emotions of high estrogen. It's like I know I am acting ridiculous. I gossip more. I'm more easily offended. I'm quicker to an emotional response of any kind. More erratic. I'm basically on my period. It is no fun at all. Ask any woman if she enjoys the emotions of being on her period. Now ask yourself if is it fun to be around a woman when she is on her period.

 

[Jerajera]

What did you run into for adverse effects? I've heard some suggest you can experience transient low E2 symptoms when you first dose the AI due to the speed at which E2 drops.

Headaches and some nausea mostly, also my mood dropping considerably after a great initial effect, even on a very small dose of Adex.

What's interesting is that initially when I would take those small doses, the next morning I would wake up with a hard-on that would last 15 minutes, I couldn't even pee. I doubt that's placebo, if it were why didn't it last and how could the effect be so strong? Also there are many things I tried which i expected to make my libido and erections better and there were no positive effects whatsoever, so why no placebo in those cases? I think people throw that word around a little too much.

But anyway, I was initially extremely hopeful, my sleep the night of taking the AI was also the best of my life since I was 10yo or so, no exaggeration. Unfortunately I didn't seem to be able to sustain it. But to be fair again, I'd been so freaked out by all the anti-AI hysteria that I right away concluded I'd crashed my E2 and stopped the experiment.

I'm curious what Aromasin would do. I'm pretty sure it's a DHT derivative which has androgenic properties and some at least seem to feel a lot better on it than Adex.
I'm going to try Mast P, Proviron, Primo and Aromasin for E2 control, all with Test P, and see what happens. I remember hCG also making me feel amazing and mentally significantly sharper before I got ridiculously bloated and E2 caught up with me again. If I can find a way to control E2 to keep it in a good range, I'll probably reintroduce hCG and neursteroids into my protocol.

I've come to the conclusion that the two main culprits preventing men from feeling good on TRT/HRT are HPTA shutdown and E2 sides, and they feel very different.

I can't blame E2 solely for feeling numb and lethargic, because I've had in-range E2 on long esters and still felt like shit, but I wasn't bloated and my erections were strong.
However on Prop my E2 was through the roof and my libido (and erections, amazingly enough) were the best of any protocol. However I got severely bloated again and started getting high BP and headaches.

I know many believe the water retention and its consequences are due solely to androgens while E2 is the best thing since lingerie and men should be mainlining E2 24/7, but as soon as I control E2 the bloating goes away almost instantly even though in some cases Free T goes even higher from SHBG lowering, so riddle me that one.

So at this point I believe the Test should be an ester short enough to not completely shut down the HPTA, and also E2 should be controlled if you're not one of those people whose E2 never gets too high. Age is also a factor in this, there is research showing increased aromatization with aging for men even when controlling for body fat percentages, and anecdotally many bodybuilders will tell you how when they were younger they used to be able to run much more Test and other aromatizing compounds without an AI, but as they got older they had to start using AIs.
We're talking about people with single digit body fat %, so that argument goes out the window again.

I've never stayed with prop very long. I'm currently on test E, 80 mg twice weekly, with .1 mg anastrazole 2x weekly. I'm pretty happy in most respects. I just switched to this from an EOD protocol, trying to see if I can improve my libido with lower frequency.

I'm glad you're doing well, I know at some point you were considering getting off completely, as I have also and I'm sure many here who've been struggling for years.
Anecdotally I did have much better libido on less frequent injections of longer esters, unfortunately my BP jumped from a lifelong perfect 115/75 to 160/80, so there's that lol. But i think E2 control would prevent that from happening; I had no idea at the time because my doctor was one of those idiots who don't even test for E2 because "it's good for everything in men". Insane

 

[Jerajera]

For me personally, besides some water retention and weak erections, I can't handle the emotions of high estrogen. It's like I know I am acting ridiculous. I gossip more. I'm more easily offended. I'm quicker to an emotional response of any kind. More erratic. I'm basically on my period. It is no fun at all. Ask any woman if she enjoys the emotions of being on her period. Now ask yourself if is it fun to be around a woman when she is on her period.

Completely agree with this. I'm now also absolutely convinced "roid rage" is really Estrogen rage

 

[jmbb]

For me personally, besides some water retention and weak erections, I can't handle the emotions of high estrogen. It's like I know I am acting ridiculous. I gossip more. I'm more easily offended. I'm quicker to an emotional response of any kind. More erratic. I'm basically on my period. It is no fun at all. Ask any woman if she enjoys the emotions of being on her period. Now ask yourself if is it fun to be around a woman when she is on her period.

100 percent - the hard part about it for me is that I don't realize HOW ridiculous my emotions/reactions are until I lower the E2 back down. It certainly can at least explain some of the behavior of a few of the extreme high e2 / anti AI crowd that used to patrol the forums years ago.

 

[Jerajera]

100 percent - the hard part about it for me is that I don't realize HOW ridiculous my emotions/reactions are until I lower the E2 back down. It certainly can at least explain some of the behavior of a few of the extreme high e2 / anti AI crowd that used to patrol the forums years ago.

Same. When my E2 is high I feel completely justified in my ridiculous and over the top reactions, just like a woman.
Zero accountability, entitlement, hysteria, etc...when E2 is controlled suddently I feel very calm. I'm assertive without being aggressive, etc...what a man should be.

And yes, I made that point on T-Nation a couple years ago. All the guys (Bossa and cie) pushing the E2 agenda were the most aggressive and hysterical bunch I'd ever seen in my life, bar none. Completely dogmatic with zero ability to think rationally.

Some doctors on TRT are like that also, it's astounding to witness.

 

[Seagal]

For me personally, besides some water retention and weak erections, I can't handle the emotions of high estrogen. It's like I know I am acting ridiculous. I gossip more. I'm more easily offended. I'm quicker to an emotional response of any kind. More erratic. I'm basically on my period. It is no fun at all. Ask any woman if she enjoys the emotions of being on her period. Now ask yourself if is it fun to be around a woman when she is on her period.

Don't ask while she is on her period.
You made my day.

I agree with the effects on our brain.

 

[Gman86]

Let's say this is true. How does it affect your approach? Are you going to take some kind of serotonin-blocking drug to deal with the serotonin? What ramifications will that have? Will you take cabergoline long-term for the prolactin and risk developing a problem with your heart valves? Or would you simply bring the E2 level down from obscene to a level that is still high, but doesn't produce a cascade of serotonin and prolactin symptoms? We've still arrived at the same place.

God I love how ur brain works lol. Perfect balance of intelligence, but being able to keep things simple/ logical, when necessary. And obv I’m biased here, but I obv love that ur smart enough to realize the value in real life anecdotal experiences, aka what actually happens, vs what people/ organizations/ studies/ science/ clinical trials, etc., tell us what theoretically should happen

 

[Gman86]

Completely agree with this. I'm now also absolutely convinced "roid rage" is really Estrogen rage

I agree with this. That and guys being on tren lol. If u watch vids of guys talking about their experiences on high dose tren, it mimics what we view as “roid rage” to a T

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I'm curious what Aromasin would do. I'm pretty sure it's a DHT derivative which has androgenic properties and some at least seem to feel a lot better on it than Adex.
I'm going to try Mast P, Proviron, Primo and Aromasin for E2 control, all with Test P, and see what happens. I remember hCG also making me feel amazing and mentally significantly sharper before I got ridiculously bloated and E2 caught up with me again. If I can find a way to control E2 to keep it in a good range, I'll probably reintroduce hCG and neursteroids into my protocol.

I'm very interested in the results of these experiments, so I hope you will keep us updated. I'd like to try all the same compounds at some point.

I've come to the conclusion that the two main culprits preventing men from feeling good on TRT/HRT are HPTA shutdown and E2 sides, and they feel very different.

I can't blame E2 solely for feeling numb and lethargic, because I've had in-range E2 on long esters and still felt like shit, but I wasn't bloated and my erections were strong.
However on Prop my E2 was through the roof and my libido (and erections, amazingly enough) were the best of any protocol. However I got severely bloated again and started getting high BP and headaches.

The HPTA shutdown doesn't seem to affect everyone equally. Overall, I feel pretty good and mentally sharp. The only obvious cognitive impairment I experienced on TRT was associated with compounded cypionate. Maybe I haven't been shut down long enough for the consequences to catch up with me? It's been about 8 months now. My libido isn't great, but it wasn't any better before TRT.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I'm glad you're doing well, I know at some point you were considering getting off completely, as I have also and I'm sure many here who've been struggling for years.

Thanks Jerajera. I did come close to throwing in the towel completely, until I tried Hikma enanthate, which was actually tolerable for me. I'm using Empower enanthate now as a result of the Hikma shortage - so far, that seems to be working well also. With T enanthate as a base, I'm now feeling mostly good, most of the time, regardless of the protocol adjustments I'm making.

Anecdotally I did have much better libido on less frequent injections of longer esters, unfortunately my BP jumped from a lifelong perfect 115/75 to 160/80, so there's that lol. But i think E2 control would prevent that from happening; I had no idea at the time because my doctor was one of those idiots who don't even test for E2 because "it's good for everything in men". Insane

Yeah. The way I conceptualize this now with the longer esters: if you draw a line that represents the spectrum of possible frequencies, at the low frequency end you have high libido and poor side effect control. At the high frequency end, you have lower libido and excellent side effect control. Thinking about it this way, if you want to optimize for libido, you reduce frequency as much as you can before side effects become too bothersome. I do believe E2 control can be helpful to improve your ability to tolerate lower frequencies.

 

[DixieWrecked]

Thanks Jerajera. I did come close to throwing in the towel completely, until I tried Hikma enanthate, which was actually tolerable for me. I'm using Empower enanthate now as a result of the Hikma shortage - so far, that seems to be working well also. With T enanthate as a base, I'm now feeling mostly good, most of the time, regardless of the protocol adjustments I'm making.


Yeah. The way I conceptualize this now with the longer esters: if you draw a line that represents the spectrum of possible frequencies, at the low frequency end you have high libido and poor side effect control. At the high frequency end, you have lower libido and excellent side effect control. Thinking about it this way, if you want to optimize for libido, you reduce frequency as much as you can before side effects become too bothersome. I do believe E2 control can be helpful to improve your ability to tolerate lower frequencies.

is the compounded enanthate also made without the benzyl benzoate or whatever it's called?