160mg/40mg Testosterone Cypionate / Propionate Blend by Empower?

[jth0524]

Empower Pharmacy has a new 160/40 cyp/prop blend. Is anyone using this form of testosterone blend? If you are, how do you feel? Also, is anyone else using just propionate? I’d be interested to see anyone’s experiences using either of these formulations. Thanks

 

[Vince Carter]

I saw that blend, I tried Prop only and I had terrible sides with it, like carpal tunnel/arm pain overnight, bad pain, bad as in wake you up and try and shake the arms out kind of cramping, was hard to describe. Plus, prop came in a very weak concentration, 50mg/mL which meant I was shooting a lot more oil for the same dose. I didnt like anything about Prop and would never use it again. I may just ahve been an oddball case but I couldnt stand that stuff.

 

[Sean Mosher]

I used a similar blend a few years back when I first started TRT.
Only thing I noticed different from what I experience now is a really good pump the day of injection (which I guess you could say could be equated to a "wellness" feeling if you will).
I just attribute that to the prop getting into my system more quickly.
Other than that I noticed no real difference to be honest.

I can see why adding the prop in there might help someone feel like the treatment is working or that they can quickly notice a tangible difference. Problem is that goes away fairly quickly.

 

[Vince Carter]

I might have been able to work with Prop if it had any upside for me but it was straight neutral or negative, just couldn't use it. What it was like now that I'm remembering was like when I messed with the GH secreatagogues like GHRP2/6 or 1295 w/o. We thought a IGF spike with the Prop as was the same reason and symptom I stopped messing with those, too.

 

[Jasen Bruce]

Testosterone propionate is definitely not for everyone, however, there are certain men who do benefit from including the ester in their therapy. Propionate needs to be injected more frequently than cypionate, roughly every 2-3 days if used as a monotherapy to keep serum testosterone stable. For this reason and due to its more robust peak (and trough) effect I personally dont favor propionate as a monotherapy, but it does appear to have anecdotal benefit when combined with a longer ester including cypionate. Some men benefit from a more robust androgen peak, perhaps those suffering from finsateride syndrome or who have trouble with downstream testosterone conversion. Others who do not metabolize the cypionate ester consistently might also benefit from including lower dosages of shortened ester for faster onset and peak before leveling out. Again, this is all anecdotal, but it appears that the different effects noticed with a cypionate/propionate blend are experienced with twice per week injections (q3days).

50mg/mL is actually a high concentration of testosterone propionate since roughly 98% of the weight is actual testosterone rather than ester, and its rapid onset and metabolism utilize all of that testosterone over a shorter period of time, resulting in 50mg yielding a higher amount of T than usually produced endogenously. Usually, less is used as replacement therapy, 12.5mg - 25mg every 2-3 days is the replacement dosage I have seen many doctors start with. Of course, due to fluctuating levels across different patients, prop will need to be titrated more carefully if used as a monotherapy (and more frequent follow ups will be produced at the beginning to ensure levels are not fluctuating from a combination). Empower's combination contains 40mg/ml of propionate combined with 160mg/ml of cypionate. It is usually injected at a volume of 1/4ml to 1/2ml 1-3 times per week (10mg-20mg propionate per injection). Since Empower uses grapeseed oil and adjusts the Ph at each batch, I have personally found their propionate does not cause the site irritation that typically results from using other products (due to the propionic acid most likely). I used the blend subq with no issue and have spoken to several guys who reported the same experience.

Another reason this blend might be important is due to access of injectable testosterone options in general. Testosterone propionate products are not available in the US, and therefore testosterone ester blends containing propionate are also not available through commercial products. This unavailability allows compounding pharmacies to provide these custom options to physicians who then can offer access to patients who benefit from unique formulas and/or need affordable access to cheaper compounded products. Although compounding pharmacies are justified in compounding testosterone cypionate injectables when using different carriers such as grapeseed oil (vs commercially used cottonseed), the FDA guidance is written with enough flexibility to suppress their ability to make testosterone cypionate products as they could be considered to close to their essential commercial copies (i.e brand name test cyp). In the event this happens, unique formulas including cypionate/propionate blended products will allow compounding pharmacies to continue providing personalized and lower cost options for men on replacement therapy

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

OP, I use Prop only at 10-12mg per day and it seems to work well, although I've never used any other form so I can't really compare. The reason is that when I first started TRT, the best evidence I could gather was that prop seemed to have the most votes for what "feels" best and I don't have any issue with injecting every day. It also (in theory) gives a more natural daily undulation but I have no basis for saying whether there is any benefit to that. I tried injecting every other day and may try that again, but every day seemed to be a bit better

 

[jth0524]

Voices, can you explain your injection process including sites you inject, subq vs im, and gauge needle? Thanks

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

I use a 30g 1/2 inch needle and inject either SQ in the abdomen area or IM in the shoulders. I seem to feel better doing SQ although I am not sure if that is just my imagination or real. i will do some more experimenting soon. I get some small lumps when I inject SQ but nothing that creates an issue, and no issues of any kind when I inject IM in my shoulders. I tried IM in my quad and got some severe soreness so i stopped that.

 

[Jasen Bruce]

I use a 30g 1/2 inch needle and inject either SQ in the abdomen area or IM in the shoulders. I seem to feel better doing SQ although I am not sure if that is just my imagination or real. i will do some more experimenting soon. I get some small lumps when I inject SQ but nothing that creates an issue, and no issues of any kind when I inject IM in my shoulders. I tried IM in my quad and got some severe soreness so i stopped that.

You have an interesting protocol 10mg-12mg subq daily. Just curious if you have drawn labs during this protocol to see how testosterone, DHT, and E2 levels maintain? If you metabolize propionate consistent with known pharmacokinetics then it could be likely that your level has a nice consistent peak immediately after injection which then falls towards the evening into the following day (overlapping with the next injection- if you are injection first thing in the AM). 10mg-12mg makes sense since good endogenous production yields somewhere between 7mg-10mg daily. Labs would be interesting to see as I have heard of other guys who use the same protocol with propionate as a monotherapy (either daily or eod).

Also, what brand of propionate are you using? I assume compounded if in the US.

 

[FeelingLost]

Testosterone propionate is definitely not for everyone, however, there are certain men who do benefit from including the ester in their therapy. Propionate needs to be injected more frequently than cypionate, roughly every 2-3 days if used as a monotherapy to keep serum testosterone stable. For this reason and due to its more robust peak (and trough) effect I personally dont favor propionate as a monotherapy, but it does appear to have anecdotal benefit when combined with a longer ester including cypionate. Some men benefit from a more robust androgen peak, perhaps those suffering from finsateride syndrome or who have trouble with downstream testosterone conversion. Others who do not metabolize the cypionate ester consistently might also benefit from including lower dosages of shortened ester for faster onset and peak before leveling out. Again, this is all anecdotal, but it appears that the different effects noticed with a cypionate/propionate blend are experienced with twice per week injections (q3days).

50mg/mL is actually a high concentration of testosterone propionate since roughly 98% of the weight is actual testosterone rather than ester, and its rapid onset and metabolism utilize all of that testosterone over a shorter period of time, resulting in 50mg yielding a higher amount of T than usually produced endogenously. Usually, less is used as replacement therapy, 12.5mg - 25mg every 2-3 days is the replacement dosage I have seen many doctors start with. Of course, due to fluctuating levels across different patients, prop will need to be titrated more carefully if used as a monotherapy (and more frequent follow ups will be produced at the beginning to ensure levels are not fluctuating from a combination). Empower's combination contains 40mg/ml of propionate combined with 160mg/ml of cypionate. It is usually injected at a volume of 1/4ml to 1/2ml 1-3 times per week (10mg-20mg propionate per injection). Since Empower uses grapeseed oil and adjusts the Ph at each batch, I have personally found their propionate does not cause the site irritation that typically results from using other products (due to the propionic acid most likely). I used the blend subq with no issue and have spoken to several guys who reported the same experience.

Another reason this blend might be important is due to access of injectable testosterone options in general. Testosterone propionate products are not available in the US, and therefore testosterone ester blends containing propionate are also not available through commercial products. This unavailability allows compounding pharmacies to provide these custom options to physicians who then can offer access to patients who benefit from unique formulas and/or need affordable access to cheaper compounded products. Although compounding pharmacies are justified in compounding testosterone cypionate injectables when using different carriers such as grapeseed oil (vs commercially used cottonseed), the FDA guidance is written with enough flexibility to suppress their ability to make testosterone cypionate products as they could be considered to close to their essential commercial copies (i.e brand name test cyp). In the event this happens, unique formulas including cypionate/propionate blended products will allow compounding pharmacies to continue providing personalized and lower cost options for men on replacement therapy

I would love to try this do they offer a trial sample size? With T prescriptions being so restrictive/quanity controlled how would one test this and if it is not for them
still have enough T to get them to their next refill?

 

[Vince Carter]

sending you a PM feelinglost

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Hi Jasen,

To answer your questions and add a bit more detail:

- Yes, I had a lot of labs to arrive at this protocol
- I use Empower
- E2 has never been a problem and I currently take .1 adex once per week
- My TT stays around 600
- I don’t remember having DHT checked however I seem to do better with what I think is slightly higher DHT so I am going to have that checked soon. I have tried many things to raise DHT and only Butea Superba seems to occasionally (unreliably) work symptom-wise. On that topic I would be interested to know if the main DHT-derived anabolic can be compounded and prescribed here in the US. I think it is only available overseas, however many people think that about prop also.
- I usually inject in the late evening but I have recently switched to injecting pre-workout so I am assuming I get the variation you describe.

To add a bit more detail:

- I respond well to low doses of almost everything so I am certainly not recommending my dose for others, just reporting what seems to work for me. However, the doses I often hear other people start with would be total overshoot for me.
- I prioritize sexual function, but if I had a severe injury I would obviously change priorities
- As I have reported in other threads, another reason for choosing prop to start with is that if I overshot on the dose, which I did early on out of necessity as part of trial and error, the prop obviously clears out of the system faster. The long esters seem to me like they would be much more difficult to dial in since with prop you can guess with good accuracy how much is in your system where with the long esters it would be much more difficult.

 

[J2048b]

I want to ask why more cyp than prop? I have always wondered as prop has a 4-5 day ester basically and cyp is 7-9ish, so wouldnt it be better to have the harder ester hit and then the cyp pick up the trough and smooth u out? Or am i thinkin wrong?

 

[Tommy Wall]

Before I used Testoviron that was ok but I feel this blend is much better for me:
Sustanon 250 is a blend of four esterified testosterone compounds:

• 30 mg testosterone propionate
• 60 mg testosterone phenylpropionate
• 60 mg testosterone isocaproate
• 100 mg testosterone decanoate

 

[J2048b]

Before I used Testoviron that was ok but I feel this blend is much better for me:
Sustanon 250 is a blend of four esterified testosterone compounds:

• 30 mg testosterone propionate
• 60 mg testosterone phenylpropionate
• 60 mg testosterone isocaproate
• 100 mg testosterone decanoate

Yep and if i could get get sust thats what id be gettig myself