Who feels better on e5d or e7d compared.to more frequent shots?

[DonaldPump2020]

So after some trial and error I came to th3 conclusion that ed eod mwf dont work at all for me, i get low T symptoms even on 200mg per week when injecting that frequent.

I feel much better on e3.5d but not good enough.
Now Im trying out e5d and if that isnt good enough i may even try e7d.

Anyone else out there feeling better on less frequent shots?
I didnt get SHBG on my bloods last time, which is where i fucked up, should have measured that.

Anyways

 

[MIP1950]

You will get diverse opinions, some based on clinical research, some based on trial and error. I understand that you want to know something specific but on this forum, as on other forums, there are men doing weekly, EOD, E3.5D, daily, some IM, some subq. And the length of time on each protocol is critical. It could take 6 to 12 weeks to determine if your injection schedule is working. And, in contrast, there are some men who respond quickly, feel/ function fine and never look back. Patience, indeed, is required.

 

[DonaldPump2020]

Im just asking cause most people say you need e3.5d minimun to get somewhat stable levels.
But as i didnt even get high e2 on 100mg e3.5d and still felt like i needed more i switched to e5d.
I was on the 3.5d protocol for around 11 weeks

I also felt much better on gel than on ed eod mwf or e3.5d injections, no matter if subq or im.

Gel is basically a big blasts of T and big conversion to e2 and dht each day,with t levels dropping fast, being back to baseline before next application next day.

For example. On 620 ngdl T on injections i felt million times worse than on 630 ngdl test on gel (5hrs after application. T level would drop even lower ar night) yet i felt great even at night when T would be low since e2 stayed elevated.

Now with the e5d and later maybe e7d injections i would recreate that, a big blast of T with big conversion to e2 and dht, with levels peaking high and dropping off before next injection.

Ive heard some do better on these rollercoaster rides.
Maybr someone else does better on infrequent shots dur to high shbg or other factors?

 

[Willyt]

Im just asking cause most people say you need e3.5d minimun to get somewhat stable levels.
But as i didnt even get high e2 on 100mg e3.5d and still felt like i needed more i switched to e5d.
I was on the 3.5d protocol for around 11 weeks

I also felt much better on gel than on ed eod mwf or e3.5d injections, no matter if subq or im.

Gel is basically a big blasts of T and big conversion to e2 and dht each day,with t levels dropping fast, being back to baseline before next application next day.

For example. On 620 ngdl T on injections i felt million times worse than on 630 ngdl test on gel (5hrs after application. T level would drop even lower ar night) yet i felt great even at night when T would be low since e2 stayed elevated.

Now with the e5d and later maybe e7d injections i would recreate that, a big blast of T with big conversion to e2 and dht, with levels peaking high and dropping off before next injection.

Ive heard some do better on these rollercoaster rides.
Maybr someone else does better on infrequent shots dur to high shbg or other factors?

So why did you discontinue the gel?

 

[madman]

So after some trial and error I came to th3 conclusion that ed eod mwf dont work at all for me, i get low T symptoms even on 200mg per week when injecting that frequent.

I feel much better on e3.5d but not good enough.
Now Im trying out e5d and if that isnt good enough i may even try e7d.

Anyone else out there feeling better on less frequent shots?
I didnt get SHBG on my bloods last time, which is where i fucked up, should have measured that.

Anyways

Not much to work with here!

Need to be more specific about protocols as you only stated injection frequencies (daily, EOD, M/W/F) other than even on 200 mg/week.

What dose of T were you on during each protocol?

Was everyone protocol change given a full 12 weeks to truly gauge whether it was a success or failure?

Top it all off that we have no idea where your trough TT, FT, estradiol sat let alone your SHBG, DHT, Prolactin, and other important blood markers such as RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit as you never posted blood work.

200 mg T/week is a whopping dose, especially when split into more frequent injections whether (every 3.5 days, M/W/F, EOD let alone daily) and would most likely have trough FT levels through the roof!

Many can easily achieve a healthy let alone high trough FT on 100-150 mg T whether split every 3.5 days, M/W/F, EOD let alone daily.

Sure some men do need what would be considered the high-end dose of 200 mg T/week but it is far from common.

Although most will tend to do better splitting up the overall weekly dose by injecting more frequently whether (every 3.5 days, M/W/F, EOD, or daily) there are many men who do well injecting once weekly.

The downfall of injecting larger doses once weekly is that there will be a big difference in the peak--->trough (especially when injecting strictly IM) and blood levels will not be as stable throughout the week which can have a negative impact on energy/mood/libido/erections due to the swing from highs-lows (roller-coaster effect).

Some men tend to do well on such protocol as they feel better overall having the higher levels earlier in the week only to be followed by much lower levels come week's end.

As you very well know injecting more frequently will clip the peak--->trough and result in more stable blood levels throughout the week.

Where your SHBG sits will not only have a significant impact on TT/FT but can also dictate what injection frequency may suit you best.

Comes down to the individual and in many cases, trial and error are needed.

As I have stated numerous times on here when starting trt or tweaking a protocol (increasing/decreasing T dose) the first 6 weeks means nothing when looking at the bigger picture as hormones will be in flux during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) and it is common for many to experience ups/downs during the transition as the body is trying to adjust.

Many make the mistake of gauging how they feel during this time which can be very misleading as once blood levels have stabilized it will take time for the body to fully adapt to the new setpoint and this is the critical time period when one should gauge how they truly feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-t symptoms and overall well being.

Lab work is done once blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) as we want to see where said protocol (dose T/injection frequency) has your TT, FT, estradiol, SHBG, DHT, Prolactin, and other blood markers such as RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit.

Let alone get an idea of how you feel overall

If you are experiencing sides let alone feel horrible 6 weeks in then adjustments may be needed if trough T levels come back too low (highly doubtful) or in some cases too high (which can be common) as many tend to jump in on higher doses from the get-go.

Not only do most men get caught up on the more T is better mentality but many fail to understand how exogenous esterified T works and end up switching up their protocol every 6 weeks because they do not feel well.

These are the same individuals that continue to struggle and get caught up on that never-ending merry-go-round chasing their tales until the cows come home.

Patience is key.

 

[DonaldPump2020]

I heard conflicting info on when and how to test levels on gel. Some said to take bloods 4hrs after application,.some said right in the morning befor3 next application. Cause once i had a test a few hrs after application which tested at 2200ngl (on 46mg of T in gel) so my dose was halfed.

Still felt okay on just 23mg of t in gel but after some time it simply worked less and less until i got low t symptoms again.idk if my skin absorbed less.

Also it was too much of a hassle, drying the gel each day for 40 minutes, planning your showers around it, missing a day would send me into low T again and so on.

If all inj. Protocols fail i may go back on gel again but as experience showed, 2 different gels lost effectiveness after time.
Also i lost so much hair on gel

 

[madman]

Im just asking cause most people say you need e3.5d minimun to get somewhat stable levels.
But as i didnt even get high e2 on 100mg e3.5d and still felt like i needed more i switched to e5d.
I was on the 3.5d protocol for around 11 weeks

I also felt much better on gel than on ed eod mwf or e3.5d injections, no matter if subq or im.

Gel is basically a big blasts of T and big conversion to e2 and dht each day,with t levels dropping fast, being back to baseline before next application next day.

For example. On 620 ngdl T on injections i felt million times worse than on 630 ngdl test on gel (5hrs after application. T level would drop even lower ar night) yet i felt great even at night when T would be low since e2 stayed elevated.

Now with the e5d and later maybe e7d injections i would recreate that, a big blast of T with big conversion to e2 and dht, with levels peaking high and dropping off before next injection.

Ive heard some do better on these rollercoaster rides.
Maybr someone else does better on infrequent shots dur to high shbg or other factors?

If you are convinced that you may do better with higher peaks--->lower troughs than try once weekly.

Even then seeing as you felt better when using transdermal then give it a go and you can even look into using a cream once daily (scrotal application).

 

[DonaldPump2020]

I started e5 2 weeks ago and want to complete 6 weeks and take.bloods first. If free t could be higher i may try e7d. I dont seem to aromatize much on injections, i may need higher e2 (just a guess since i cant get lc ms testing here, but i will judge by symptoms)

The reason i dont want to try scrotal cream is that i already lost so much hair density in 3 months on gel that im on a conplex hair loss/recover Routine now, dont wanna risk that again. Also i doubt a doctor is gonna prescribe me additional gel/cream ontop of my injections as all they care about is "t being in the reference range" .


I know i cant give a full blood panel.now but that doesnt matter, i just want to hear some experiences of other people who felt better on less frequent injections. To cheer me up or give me hope lol, cause many people say "the more frequent the better" which for me is def not the case

 

[Fortunate]

I am of the (non scientific) opinion that levels don’t normalize in 24 hours on cream. A lot of people make reference to the scrotal cream study, but it only goes about 12 or 14 hours out. I think this is part of the reason why some do well for a while, but overtime, start to feel poorly. I suspect levels accumulate to supraphysiologic ranges, along with the downstream metabolites.

 

[DonaldPump2020]

With normalize you mean they dont go back to baseline before next morning? I dont understand it either, even gel manufactures own studies about the test levels and duration seem to differ.
All i know is that on androgel (after that i used testavan, which i thought was better) after 36hrs i was almost zero T, smth like 0.44 ng dl

 

[Eagleface]

So after some trial and error I came to th3 conclusion that ed eod mwf dont work at all for me, i get low T symptoms even on 200mg per week when injecting that frequent.

I feel much better on e3.5d but not good enough.
Now Im trying out e5d and if that isnt good enough i may even try e7d.

Anyone else out there feeling better on less frequent shots?
I didnt get SHBG on my bloods last time, which is where i fucked up, should have measured that.

Anyways

I’m currently doing 110mg every 6 days, I feel a lot better and my free T is much higher than when injecting more frequently.
My SHBG stays around 60’s.
I feel very steady.

 

[Fortunate]

With normalize you mean they dont go back to baseline before next morning? I dont understand it either, even gel manufactures own studies about the test levels and duration seem to differ.
All i know is that on androgel (after that i used testavan, which i thought was better) after 36hrs i was almost zero T, smth like 0.44 ng dl

I have used compounded cream at 20%, 15% and 5% and I feel the effects for greater than 24 hours. If my suspicion is correct, it would explain why some guys report really high levels on cream. By the same logic, DHT and e2 may also act like a runaway train.

Nothing scientific about my thoughts. Just my gut impression.

 

[DonaldPump2020]

But are you sure its the T level you feel? I always thought estradiol had a longer half life than T, which is why i felt better on gel, even at night, with a t level way lower than any injection protocol.

I googled a Diagramm for testavans duration of effects and according to that T drops to baseline after 8 to max 12 hours# after peaking on 2-4hrs

On 46mg T in Gel i had a t level of 2200 ng dl 2 hours after application. It peaks very high and drops very fast.

This is what i want to recreate with infrequent shots now, big fast blasts for maximum e2 and dht conversion

 

[Fortunate]

But are you sure its the T level you feel? I always thought estradiol had a longer half life than T, which is why i felt better on gel, even at night, with a t level way lower than any injection protocol.

I googled a Diagramm for testavans duration of effects and according to that T drops to baseline after 8 to max 12 hours# after peaking on 2-4hrs

On 46mg T in Gel i had a t level of 2200 ng dl 2 hours after application. It peaks very high and drops very fast.

This is what i want to recreate with infrequent shots now, big fast blasts for maximum e2 and dht conversion

Everything I said is pure conjecture. I have felt hyper and anxious for more than 24 hours after application, but it’s hard to say if that’s related to DHT, estradiol or testosterone.

 

[RickB]

Not much to work with here!

Need to be more specific about protocols as you only stated injection frequencies (daily, EOD, M/W/F) other than even on 200 mg/week.

What dose of T were you on during each protocol?

Was everyone protocol change given a full 12 weeks to truly gauge whether it was a success or failure?

Top it all off that we have no idea where your trough TT, FT, estradiol sat let alone your SHBG, DHT, Prolactin, and other important blood markers such as RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit as you never posted blood work.

200 mg T/week is a whopping dose, especially when split into more frequent injections whether (every 3.5 days, M/W/F, EOD let alone daily) and would most likely have trough FT levels through the roof!

Many can easily achieve a healthy let alone high trough FT on 100-150 mg T whether split every 3.5 days, M/W/F, EOD let alone daily.

Sure some men do need what would be considered the high-end dose of 200 mg T/week but it is far from common.

Although most will tend to do better splitting up the overall weekly dose by injecting more frequently whether (every 3.5 days, M/W/F, EOD, or daily) there are many men who do well injecting once weekly.

The downfall of injecting larger doses once weekly is that there will be a big difference in the peak--->trough (especially when injecting strictly IM) and blood levels will not be as stable throughout the week which can have a negative impact on energy/mood/libido/erections due to the swing from highs-lows (roller-coaster effect).

Some men tend to do well on such protocol as they feel better overall having the higher levels earlier in the week only to be followed by much lower levels come week's end.

As you very well know injecting more frequently will clip the peak--->trough and result in more stable blood levels throughout the week.

Where your SHBG sits will not only have a significant impact on FT but can also dictate what injection frequency may suit you best.

Comes down to the individual and in many cases, trial and error are needed.

As I have stated numerous times on here when starting trt or tweaking a protocol (increasing/decreasing T dose) the first 6 weeks means nothing when looking at the bigger picture as hormones will be in flux during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) and it is common for many to experience ups/downs during the transition as the body is trying to adjust.

Many make the mistake of gauging how they feel during this time which can be very misleading as once blood levels have stabilized it will take time for the body to fully adapt to the new setpoint and this is the critical time period when one should gauge how they truly feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-t symptoms and overall well being.

Lab work is done once blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) as we want to see where said protocol (dose T/injection frequency) has your TT, FT, estradiol, SHBG, DHT, Prolactin, and other blood markers such as RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit.

Let alone get an idea of how you feel overall

If you are experiencing sides let alone feel horrible 6 weeks in then adjustments may be needed if trough T levels come back too low (highly doubtful) or in some cases too high (which can be common) as many tend to jump in on higher doses from the get-go.

Not only do most men get caught up on the more T is better mentality but many fail to understand how exogenous esterified T works and end up switching up their protocol every 6 weeks because they do not feel well.

These are the same individuals that continue to struggle and get caught up on that never-ending merry-go-round chasing their tales until the cows come home.

Patience is key.

Please explain, or point to, the science regarding blood levels stabilizing after x weeks. It's not that I don't believe you; I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around that.

If I front load and get good numbers, and then start a EOD protocol, getting bloods done weekly and getting very similar numbers, why should I expect a better physical reaction when I get to week 6, 8, 10, or 12?

 

[madman]

Please explain, or point to, the science regarding blood levels stabilizing after x weeks. It's not that I don't believe you; I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around that.

If I front load and get good numbers, and then start a EOD protocol, getting bloods done weekly and getting very similar numbers, why should I expect a better physical reaction when I get to week 6, 8, 10, or 12?

When using the most commonly prescribed T esters (cypionate/enanthate) it will take 4-6 weeks for blood levels to stabilize due to the half-life.

Blood work is done at 6 weeks and we test at the true trough.

Read over the thread: Short vs long esters

*Following the initiation of testosterone therapy, serum concentrations of testosterone are known to correct earlier than the symptomatic, structural, and metabolic signs associated with TD

*As such, patients should be counseled that symptom response will not be immediate. Expectations for treatment response should be established with each patient. Patients can anticipate improvements in many of the common symptoms of TD (libido, energy levels, sexual function) after 3 months of treatment or longer. Metabolic and structural (body composition, muscle mass, bone density) changes may take upwards of 6-months. 77 In addition, patients should be counseled that diet and exercise in combination with testosterone therapy are recommended for body composition changes

*Appreciating this pattern of response to testosterone therapy is fundamental when determining the impact of treatment and the appropriate timing of follow-up evaluations while on therapy

*For example, if patients undergo a symptom review and measurement of testosterone levels too early (< 3 months), it may lead both physicians and patients to conclude that the treatment has not been impactful (i.e. normal levels of testosterone without symptomatic/structural/metabolic benefit). However, if the same assessment was scheduled 3-6 months after the initiation of therapy, the clinical response tends to be more reflective of normalized levels of serum testosterone




Look over:

post #64/68/77

Thinking about starting trt

I can very much agree on all that and your way of thinking. Next week I start thyroid, NDT. I've been considering since I started TRT, but I wanted to settle my TRT regimen and also hoped thyroid may optimize naturally, but it didnt. Thyroid is not terrible, FT3 is midrange, but me and my...

www.excelmale.com

post #77 sums it up nicely

Whether one is starting trt or tweaking a protocol (increasing dose) anyone who has an understanding of how esterified exogenous T works should very well know that it is very common for one to experience what we call a honeymoon period during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized as dopamine/androgen levels are increasing (AR receptors lighting up) and many tend to experience an almost euphoric like feeling let alone strong increases in libido/erections and overall well-being.....unfortunately this is temporary and short-lived as the body will eventually adapt and things tend to level off.....gauging how you truly feel during this transition is a grave mistake.

Even when tweaking a protocol (decreasing dose) it is very common for one to experience ups/downs let alone be in for a bumpy ride during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) only to end up feeling much better 2-3 months in on such protocol.

Once blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) and the new set point is reached the next couple of months is where the rubber meets the road.

This is when one should truly gauge how they feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-T symptoms let alone claiming whether such protocol is a success or failure.

Unfortunately, everyone is in for that quick fix!

Top it all off that many take drastic measures when tweaking a protocol (increasing/decreasing dose too much) of the hop and again it is common for many to experience ups/downs during the following weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks)

The new protocol needs to be given a fighting chance as we need to allow the body time to fully adapt to the new set point which was reached once blood levels have stabilized (first 4-6 weeks).

Do not even get me started on the ones that are jacked up on T from the get-go (200 mg T/week) that has them feeling stellar for the first 6 weeks only to be let down 2-3 months in because trough FT levels are way too high leaving them feeling horrible.

If they had any sense in their heads let alone understood how esterified exogenous T works then they would be prepared for the fact 12 weeks is needed to truly gauge the effectiveness of a protocol and whether it was a success or failure.

The body will eventually adapt to the new setpoint and this will become the new norm.

Every time you decide to switch things up (increase/decrease dose T) the body will need time to fully adapt once the new setpoint is reached.

Although effects on quality of life become evident within 3–6 weeks the maximum benefits take longer.

 

[madman]

Please explain, or point to, the science regarding blood levels stabilizing after x weeks. It's not that I don't believe you; I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around that.

If I front load and get good numbers, and then start a EOD protocol, getting bloods done weekly and getting very similar numbers, why should I expect a better physical reaction when I get to week 6, 8, 10, or 12?

We are on trt here.....leave the front-loading for the steroid users/abusers.

Would not even waste my time!

 

[madman]

Please explain, or point to, the science regarding blood levels stabilizing after x weeks. It's not that I don't believe you; I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around that.

If I front load and get good numbers, and then start a EOD protocol, getting bloods done weekly and getting very similar numbers, why should I expect a better physical reaction when I get to week 6, 8, 10, or 12?

From one of your previous threads:

Aug 11, 2021
My protocol is 200mg test cyp per week. One injection.

My last regular every-7-days injection was 7/23. For reasons not worth mentioning, I took another dose on 7/25.

On 7/27 I had blood work done, total being >1500 and E2 being 37.4.

I decided not to inject again until my total came down near normal. When I saw the results for 8/4 were 1343, I was hoping that by 8/9 I would be around 1000.


Frontloading was a grave mistake!

I see you are on one of those horrible cookie-cutter protocols.....high-dosed T off the hop with an AI thrown in to boot!

A whopping dose of T even for one with high/highish SHBG and will easily have your TT/FT/estradiol levels sky-high post-injection/during the first few days only to be followed by much lower levels come weeks end and in many cases trough FT can still be very high.

Would have been far better off starting on a much lower dose 100-120 mg T/week split (50-60mg every 3.5 days) with no AI.

We want to see how your body reacts to T without the use of an AI or hCG off the hop.

Start low and go slow we say.

Most men can easily achieve a healthy let alone high-end and in some cases, absurdly high trough FT on 100-150mg T/week whether split twice weekly (every 3.5 days), M/W/F, EOD let alone daily.

Starting on 200 mg T/week off the hop is overkill for most.

Sure some men may need what would be considered the higher-end dose for trt but it is far from common.

Looks like you got burned with the more T is better mentality.

 

[RickB]

From one of your previous threads:

Aug 11, 2021
My protocol is 200mg test cyp per week. One injection.

My last regular every-7-days injection was 7/23. For reasons not worth mentioning, I took another dose on 7/25.

On 7/27 I had blood work done, total being >1500 and E2 being 37.4.

I decided not to inject again until my total came down near normal. When I saw the results for 8/4 were 1343, I was hoping that by 8/9 I would be around 1000.


Frontloading was a grave mistake!

I see you are on one of those horrible cookie-cutter protocols.....high-dosed T off the hop with an AI thrown in to boot!

A whopping dose of T even for one with high/highish SHBG and will easily have your TT/FT/estradiol levels sky-high post-injection/during the first few days only to be followed by much lower levels come weeks end and in many cases trough FT can still be very high.

Would have been far better off starting on a much lower dose 100-120 mg T/week split (50-60mg every 3.5 days) with no AI.

We want to see how your body reacts to T without the use of an AI or hCG off the hop.

Start low and go slow we say.

Most men can easily achieve a healthy let alone high-end and in some cases, absurdly high trough FT on 100-150mg T/week whether split twice weekly (every 3.5 days), M/W/F, EOD let alone daily.

Starting on 200 mg T/week off the hop is overkill for most.

Sure some men may need what would be considered the higher-end dose for trt but it is far from common.

Looks like you got burned with the more T is better mentality.

Great replies, a big thanks! I understand your criticisms, but one that I don't understand is your displeasure at high free T trough levels. I've seen you mention it quite a bit. What is the specific problem with it? Side effects or health issues or both?

 

[Cataceous]

... I don't understand is your displeasure at high free T trough levels. I've seen you mention it quite a bit. What is the specific problem with it? Side effects or health issues or both?

I'm probably one to criticize high levels even more than @madman. Here are some of my objections:

• Not always, but frequently, there's no attempt to give physiological levels a chance. The low-and-slow approach is ignored and guys start TRT with trough serum free/total testosterone that's near or over top-of-range. Typically this leads to peak levels that are considerably above normal physiology. Many guys end up regretting that they didn't start with lower levels. I list some examples in this post.

• Side effects are more likely, and we see far too many cases in which the side effects are treated separately when the obvious approach is to try a lower dose. Instead guys are struggling with finding the right AI dose to manage estradiol or with maintaining iron while giving blood often to manage high hematocrit.

• Most hormone levels have U-shaped mortality curves, meaning higher and lower levels are associated with reduced longevity. While the correlations do not necessarily indicate causality, there should be a pretty decent reward to make the possible risks acceptable. The possible risks extend to the downstream metabolites. Some men believe they can increase their testosterone to dose their way out of symptoms of high estrogen. While this may sometimes be possible, the long-term risks of having extremely high estradiol are also not known.