Varying total testosterone levels on my protocol.

[Vitamin_C]

My current protocol is HCG 250 twice per week and 62.5mg of Test Cypionate (Perrigo) shallow IM or sub Q in fat pads above glutes tue/fri. I use a 27g 1/2 inch syringe. I have received 3 sets of labs from this protocol. I have seen Total testosterone as high as 1074 and as low as 830. My E2 was climbing into the 40's as well. I have a prescribing TRT doctor, have consulted with Defy and had Dr. Crisler look over my protocol, and I also get labs through my PCP. I had to get a Hep B titer drawn for school so I had my PCP draw up a total testosterone and a sensitive estradial. Seemed like a waste to get poked for one titer so I had them throw those labs in. I am a little perplexed at my results.

Total Testosterone: 524 (348-1197)
sensitive Estradiol: 30 (8-35)



My last injection was Sub Q into fat pads above glutes on Friday of 62.5 mg. These labs were drawn on a Tuesday, four days after my last injection and BEFORE my Tuesday dose of Cypionate. I wanted to get a good trough level. I expected to not be in the 1000, but I did not expect to be back to my pre TRT baseline of 500's. I don't know if its the Perrigo Testosterone (insurance covers this brand). I have tried Watson in the past and received good numbers. My last previous two draws for total testosterone (march and April) were both taken on Mondays, three days after my last pin and both were above 1000 total testosterone. I cannot remember if I was using Watson or Perrigo. I was using the exact same protocol, syringes, and injection sites when my TT was in the 1000's three days after pinning. I don't know if its the Perrigo or what, but 500's is not right and takes further examination.

Just a note, my Perrigo testosterone my insurance covers comes in individual 1ml bottles for about a month to month and a half supply. I am wondering if maybe one of the bottles could be ineffective? I am clueless right now.

 

[Vince Carter]

One key way you find stability in your testing is to eliminate as many variables as you can. I for instance, I shoot at the exact same time, every time. I see the same service center of the same lab (Quest), I always schedule my draws for 0830. I always 12hr fast. It's almost impossible to compare results otherwise.

One thing you didn't mention, what is your SHBG? There's no way you should be in the 500s three days after an injection unless your SHBG is in the mid to low teens. Just something I noticed could be a factor.
And, you might be on to something with the differing brands.

 

[Vitamin_C]

I didn't get my SHBG this time, but I did with Defy about a month and a half ago and it was 28.

 

[CoastWatcher]

Given these variations, how are you feeling? Subjectively?

 

[James]

Perrigo is my preferred cypionate. Currently taking Westward. As Vince said, eliminate as many variables as you can so tests are as consistent as possible. You still may see some variation in your numbers.

 

[Vitamin_C]

Subjectively I didn't feel much difference, but I don't like the idea of my troughs in the 500's when that is what I can obtain naturally. I was seeing good numbers and good subjective experiences 3 days after injection in the 1000's TT and top end free test. I am getting more thorough labs from my TRT doc in about a month . I was just a little bummed when I saw my trough that low three days after injection, something is not right, I expect to see some variation, but 1000's to 500's is quite a jump downward.

 

[CoastWatcher]

Subjectively I didn't feel much difference, but I don't like the idea of my troughs in the 500's when that is what I can obtain naturally. I was seeing good numbers and good subjective experiences 3 days after injection in the 1000's TT and top end free test. I am getting more thorough labs from my TRT doc in about a month . I was just a little bummed when I saw my trough that low three days after injection, something is not right, I expect to see some variation, but 1000's to 500's is quite a jump downward.

I had a 300-point difference between peak and trough when I was injecting twice-weekly (60mg each injection), but my SHBG was 19. I now inject 16mg daily and have stable readings in the mid-900s - and balanced estradiol. What about your free testosterone, where does that clock in?

 

[Vitamin_C]

I just had my PCP get total T, sensitive E, I had to get a Hep B titer so I didn't want to get poked for just one lab. My last numbers with my Defy labs about a month ago showed Free T 2 points above the top range (28 I think) and a Total T of 1074 with SHBG at 29. This was on a Monday, 2 days after pinning 60mg.

 

[Vitamin_C]

I had a 300-point difference between peak and trough when I was injecting twice-weekly (60mg each injection), but my SHBG was 19. I now inject 16mg daily and have stable readings in the mid-900s - and balanced estradiol. What about your free testosterone, where does that clock in?

300 point difference would be fine with me, putting my peak at around 1070 and my trough in the 700's or 800's. I am perplexed why my trough is in my pre- TRT levels.

 

[ERO]

I may just be testing error, especially since you have a past history of levels to follow and then this one draw seems way off. Tests are expensive, but if you can swing it you may want to get another test though discountedlabs.com just for your own piece of mind.

 

[Vitamin_C]

I am getting labs done with my TRT physician in July and they will be more in depth so I am just hoping its a lab error and I don't have to start troubleshooting and tweaking my protocol. He put me on cruise because my numbers were in good ranges and I felt good. If you think about it, I shouldn't be in the 500's trough on 125mg per week when previous tests have showed me over 1000 total test two days after injection. Really hoping its a lab error.

 

[JanSz]

Check your thread on dr J's site.

 

[Vitamin_C]

I think my HCG has lost its potency and you're right JanSz. I get it from a compounding pharmacy but they make batches at periodic times, not when you put in the rx. My bottle of HCG expired about 1 month ago. If I got more next week from my pharmacy, it would lose potency by the end of June right as they are making a new batch. The pharmacy says that it will lose potency after 60 days since it was manufactured but still sell that same batch after 1 month of being made so if you don't use it within a month it will go bad, and I've had my bottle for over a month and I think that where my problem may be. Anyway I can try and squeeze more life out of my HCG from this pharmacy?

 

[CoastWatcher]

I think my HCG has lost its potency and you're right JanSz. I get it from a compounding pharmacy but they make batches at periodic times, not when you put in the rx. My bottle of HCG expired about 1 month ago. If I got more next week from my pharmacy, it would lose potency by the end of June right as they are making a new batch. The pharmacy says that it will lose potency after 60 days since it was manufactured but still sell that same batch after 1 month of being made so if you don't use it within a month it will go bad, and I've had my bottle for over a month and I think that where my problem may be. Anyway I can try and squeeze more life out of my HCG from this pharmacy?

You aren't preparing your own HCG for injection, with bac water? It would eliminate the problem.

 

[Vitamin_C]

You aren't preparing your own HCG for injection, with bac water? It would eliminate the problem.

Nope, I am getting my HCG from a compounded Pharmacy already prepared and they put P-5-P in it.

 

[Vitamin_C]

I can order self prepared HCG through Defy if this is a better option. I don't want to run into an issue of my HCG losing potency. I was doing 250 iu M/W/F but I've never prepared my HCG before. How can I prepare it in order to get it to last for 6-8 weeks?

 

[Dr Justin Saya MD]

Nope, I am getting my HCG from a compounded Pharmacy already prepared and they put P-5-P in it.

A compounding pharmacy that doesn't give you the lyophilized (powder) form HCG typically indicates they do not have a lyophilizer (a rather expensive piece of equipment) - further often indicating that they are likely a small, low budget, and/or low quality compounding pharmacy (although not always). Another problem is that you have no control over (or knowledge of) how good of conditions they keep the reconstituted HCG in - further calling into question the quality of the product.

Lastly, and also important, if they mix it with P-5-P which has a modestly acidic pH, this could accelerate/exacerbate the HCG potency loss.

 

[Vitamin_C]

A compounding pharmacy that doesn't give you the lyophilized (powder) form HCG typically indicates they do not have a lyophilizer (a rather expensive piece of equipment) - further often indicating that they are likely a small, low budget, and/or low quality compounding pharmacy (although not always). Another problem is that you have no control over (or knowledge of) how good of conditions they keep the reconstituted HCG in - further calling into question the quality of the product.

Lastly, and also important, if they mix it with P-5-P which has a modestly acidic pH, this could accelerate/exacerbate the HCG potency loss.

Interesting points Dr. Saya. I may have to start getting my HCG through Defy. I have been doing M/W/F at 250 iu with good success, my protocol has been looked over by Dr. Crisler and I've had labs done via Defy. I get my Testosterone via my insurance but my HCG I've been getting from my local compounding Pharmacy. If I can squeeze out a couple months worth of supply with good potency out of Defy HCG I am willing to pay more $$.

 

[Dr Justin Saya MD]

Interesting points Dr. Saya. I may have to start getting my HCG through Defy. I have been doing M/W/F at 250 iu with good success, my protocol has been looked over by Dr. Crisler and I've had labs done via Defy. I get my Testosterone via my insurance but my HCG I've been getting from my local compounding Pharmacy. If I can squeeze out a couple months worth of supply with good potency out of Defy HCG I am willing to pay more $$.

I don't think you'll find that the HCG from our preferred compounding pharmacies is very expensive. How much are you paying for the pre-mixed HCG?

 

[Vitamin_C]

I don't think you'll find that the HCG from our preferred compounding pharmacies is very expensive. How much are you paying for the pre-mixed HCG?

Prices seem to change all the time, anywhere from $45-$75 for 4-8 week supply, doesn't seem to be continuity within the pricing or the dosage. It looks like this may be the reason for my low trough as my testosterone dosage protocol has not changed (60mg tue/fri). I need my HCG to be potent and last!