The TRT benefits are always overhyped by clinics and the TRT community

[Naegleria]

For example, there are studies proving that TRT doesn't really increase libido, and if it does, is temporary boost, during the honeymoon phase, this is because libido is very complex and many hormones, parameters, both physical, emotional, psychological and mental, play a role into it.

Similarly, the muscular gains are overblown. You may see some improvements in your physique, but nothing spectacular. Genetics are more important when it comes to the muscle game. This includes your bone structure, muscle shape, muscle insertions, muscle bellies and cells, height, etc and although, you can build some muscle on to your frame, if is not mean for you, then you will not look muscular.

TRT also won't fix ED unless the ED was caused by low testosterone, which in most cases, is not. Its usually caused by a combination of factors, the main one is blood flow, arterial health, nerves, but also psychological. In fact, TRT could possibly cause erectile issues in people who never had it before.

This happens because it can interact with many hormones and parameters in the body, but also TRT can thicken the blood, resulting in poorer blood flow throughout the whole body. It also stimulates the CNS and it some people, could cause a dopamine crash, too much dopamine.

This increase in dopamine and stimulation of the CNS could explain the honeymoon phase and the following reduction in benefits after that.

Many men on TRT don’t want to admit that TRT is a down dwindling spiral. That eventually benefits of TRT disappear, dosages must be increased until every drug stops working or poses a life threat and people end up where they would end up without ever getting on TRT. With exception of a few lucky ones.

I observe this on forums over and over. Cialis stops working, Trimix stops working, Testosterone stops giving any improvements, yet it feels against the flow to say anything bad about TRT. As if it were a religion and the tribe would tear apart anyone who doesn’t believe the dogma. Like “how dare you”…

If our bodies follow a natural down dwindling spiral then why getting on an artificial down dwindling spiral through medications that lead to the same result as without intervention ?

Someone benefits from this false dogma, and it’s definitely not us, the patients.

 

[Willyt]

You made your point known in the other thread. The TRT industry is a business like any other. Educate yourself, experiment, analyze and then move on if its not for you.

 

[tareload]

For example, there are studies proving that TRT doesn't really increase libido, and if it does, is temporary boost, during the honeymoon phase, this is because libido is very complex and many hormones, parameters, both physical, emotional, psychological and mental, play a role into it.

Similarly, the muscular gains are overblown. You may see some improvements in your physique, but nothing spectacular. Genetics are more important when it comes to the muscle game. This includes your bone structure, muscle shape, muscle insertions, muscle bellies and cells, height, etc and although, you can build some muscle on to your frame, if is not mean for you, then you will not look muscular.

TRT also won't fix ED unless the ED was caused by low testosterone, which in most cases, is not. Its usually caused by a combination of factors, the main one is blood flow, arterial health, nerves, but also psychological. In fact, TRT could possibly cause erectile issues in people who never had it before.

This happens because it can interact with many hormones and parameters in the body, but also TRT can thicken the blood, resulting in poorer blood flow throughout the whole body. It also stimulates the CNS and it some people, could cause a dopamine crash, too much dopamine.

This increase in dopamine and stimulation of the CNS could explain the honeymoon phase and the following reduction in benefits after that.

Many men on TRT don’t want to admit that TRT is a down dwindling spiral. That eventually benefits of TRT disappear, dosages must be increased until every drug stops working or poses a life threat and people end up where they would end up without ever getting on TRT. With exception of a few lucky ones.

I observe this on forums over and over. Cialis stops working, Trimix stops working, Testosterone stops giving any improvements, yet it feels against the flow to say anything bad about TRT. As if it were a religion and the tribe would tear apart anyone who doesn’t believe the dogma. Like “how dare you”…

If our bodies follow a natural down dwindling spiral then why getting on an artificial down dwindling spiral through medications that lead to the same result as without intervention ?

Someone benefits from this false dogma, and it’s definitely not us, the patients.

You know you don't have to put these in separate threads. How many are your going to do? You are on a roll.

 

[Systemlord]

You made your point known in the other thread.

Seriously! This is starting to look more like trolling and complaining than asking for help. I provided a solution to his problem, once daily dosing, I wonder if he followed through…

I see through this façade, this downplaying of the importance of healthy testosterone in men is more about a damaged ego than anything else, it’s the TRT, the doctors, the protocols fault it doesn’t work well, so let’s create multiple threads discrediting TRT as overblown.

To anyone with prostate issues, stay away from topicals.

 

[Naegleria]

I'm downplaying its benefits in regards to erectal function, libido, muscle gains.

Do you think most men are on TRT?

Men on TRT are a very small minority of older men who don't want to let go of their younger days and believe they're supposed to feel 25 forever. Most people get on TRT in hopes for gains, libido, erections and energy.

In most cases, they see little improvements here and there, but probably not what they imagined, but probably figure is slightly better than being natty especially in the gains department. Energy is very complex and is very naive to believe that one variable is going to change everything for you. Same for libido and erections, they are very complex processes that are affected by many things. Testosterone plays a very small role in them.

In most if not all cases, people's low libido or erectal issues have nothing to do with their testosterone level, but rather other aspects, one of them, being genetics.

That's life. Some men are just more blessed at some things, whether thats muscles, erection, libido, strength, energy, etc etc. That's life and genetics.

Most men in the USA and around world are natural. Most of them, are at plain average levels if not below average, and they do just perfectly fine.

Maybe they're not an alpha man who pops boners at will, who can make gains and strength every week, who can go and go all day, who have raging libidos, but they're masculine men who make do what they have.

Testosterone is a very small aspect of what makes you a man.

In many cases is psychological, people do labs and check their levels and now they're gaslighted themselves that theyre less of man, that whats the point of trying or keep pushing if my levels are pathetics, they alone sabotage themselves

Most men DO NOT know their levels and they dont even care, they work hard and push through life and make shit happen regardless because thats what men do

 

[t_spacemonkey]

stop re-posting for real.
but yeah. T solved so many issues for me. sex, muscle mass, gym recovery. truly my life is different since the 1+ year I am on it.

 

[Naegleria]

stop re-posting for real.
but yeah. T solved so many issues for me. sex, muscle mass, gym recovery. truly my life is different since the 1+ year I am on it.

youre not supposed to feel 25 forever, eventually your body will ask for the bill

 

[Systemlord]

I'm downplaying its benefits in regards to erectal function, libido, muscle gains.

This is you and a very small minority of men on TRT, the majority don’t have problems. If your experience was a positive one, you would be singing a different tune.

So because your experience is a bad one… You tried your first protocol and it didn’t work out, instead of trying to tweak it, you instead badmouth TRT which is very unusual and a waste of energy.

 

[JmarkH]

I'm starting to think Naegleria is Danny spamming the board.

 

[Gladiator]

What’s this crap I’m reading

 

[Vince]

I would agree that TRT does not work for everyone. I am very happy that it has worked for me. It completely lifted my brain fog. Sometimes I forget how I felt. Plus my increase in energy. TRT has been a big positive for me. Hopefully I can keep on it for the rest of my life.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

That’s why I made this 3 minute video

 

[BigTex]

For example, there are studies proving that TRT doesn't really increase libido, and if it does, is temporary boost, during the honeymoon phase, this is because libido is very complex and many hormones, parameters, both physical, emotional, psychological and mental, play a role into it.

Similarly, the muscular gains are overblown. You may see some improvements in your physique, but nothing spectacular. Genetics are more important when it comes to the muscle game. This includes your bone structure, muscle shape, muscle insertions, muscle bellies and cells, height, etc and although, you can build some muscle on to your frame, if is not mean for you, then you will not look muscular.

TRT also won't fix ED unless the ED was caused by low testosterone, which in most cases, is not. Its usually caused by a combination of factors, the main one is blood flow, arterial health, nerves, but also psychological. In fact, TRT could possibly cause erectile issues in people who never had it before.

This happens because it can interact with many hormones and parameters in the body, but also TRT can thicken the blood, resulting in poorer blood flow throughout the whole body. It also stimulates the CNS and it some people, could cause a dopamine crash, too much dopamine.

This increase in dopamine and stimulation of the CNS could explain the honeymoon phase and the following reduction in benefits after that.

Many men on TRT don’t want to admit that TRT is a down dwindling spiral. That eventually benefits of TRT disappear, dosages must be increased until every drug stops working or poses a life threat and people end up where they would end up without ever getting on TRT. With exception of a few lucky ones.

I observe this on forums over and over. Cialis stops working, Trimix stops working, Testosterone stops giving any improvements, yet it feels against the flow to say anything bad about TRT. As if it were a religion and the tribe would tear apart anyone who doesn’t believe the dogma. Like “how dare you”…

If our bodies follow a natural down dwindling spiral then why getting on an artificial down dwindling spiral through medications that lead to the same result as without intervention ?

Someone benefits from this false dogma, and it’s definitely not us, the patients.

I can't disagree with you that testosterone clinics over hype benefits but some of them are real. But are muscle gains and bone mass density really over blown?

Testosterone plays an important role in maintaining bone mass density and bone health among men. Testosterone can increase osteoblasts which increase bone density.

Testosterone and the Male Skeleton: A Dual Mode of Action

Testosterone is an important hormone for both bone gain and maintenance in men. Hypogonadal men have accelerated bone turnover and increased fracture risk. In these men, administration of testosterone inhibits bone resorption and maintains bone mass. Testosterone, however, is converted into...

www.hindawi.com

As far as muscle gains are concerned, as we age it become hard to maintain mass and gain mass and strength. TRT can help to over come this process but you are not going to change anything unless you get off the couch and hit the gym.

The following study show increases in fat-free mass, leg press strength, leg power, thigh, quadriceps muscle volumes, hemoglobin, and IGF-I as the dosing gradually increased (25,50, 125, 300, 600mg). *note- you still had to get off the couch and work out.

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men - PubMed

Testosterone increases muscle mass and strength and regulates other physiological processes, but we do not know whether testosterone effects are dose dependent and whether dose requirements for maintaining various androgen-dependent processes are similar. To determine the effects of graded doses...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In this study there was a dose dependent increase in muscle volume in healthy eugonadal men treated with graded doses of testosterone are associated with concentration-dependent increases in cross-sectional areas of both type I and type II muscle fibers and myonuclear number. We conclude that the testosterone induced increase in muscle volume is due to muscle fiber hypertrophy. ( 25-, 50-, muscle shape, muscle insertions, muscle bellies and cells, height, doses).

Testosterone-induced increase in muscle size in healthy young men is associated with muscle fiber hypertrophy - PubMed

Administration of replacement doses of testosterone to healthy hypogonadal men and supraphysiological doses to eugonadal men increases muscle size. To determine whether testosterone-induced increase in muscle size is due to muscle fiber hypertrophy, 61 healthy men, 18-35 yr of age, received...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

In the next study, older men respond to graded doses of testosterone (125, 300, and 600 mg) with a dose-dependent increase in muscle fiber CSA and satellite cell number. Testosterone-induced skeletal muscle hypertrophy in older men is associated with increased satellite cell replication and activation.

Effects of testosterone supplementation on skeletal muscle fiber hypertrophy and satellite cells in community-dwelling older men - PubMed

Older men respond to graded doses of testosterone with a dose-dependent increase in muscle fiber CSA and satellite cell number. Testosterone-induced skeletal muscle hypertrophy in older men is associated with increased satellite cell replication and activation.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I agree that muscle shape, muscle insertions, muscle bellies and height are genetic, but I have seen some older guys on TRT dose build a substantial amount of muscle with a lot of work and good diet. The thing most clinic don't tell you is the work is hard and you have to be very dedicated.

I turn 67 this year, I am 6'1" 245lbs and about 7%BF. I work out with extreme high intensity pushing my heart rate well over my age related max HR to the 150-160 BPM range during heavy sets. What has age done, I am not as muscular or strong as I was 20 years ago. I have a lot of injuries from so many year sin the gym and heavy training. My bone density is still way beyond normal, body fat, way below normal and muscle mass way more than most in a the gym. I am using 40mg of testosterone undeconoate every 5 days. Not much at all. Now how much would that change if I went up in dose (125, 300, 600mg)? I have seen some pretty big bodybuilders my age.

TRT clinics are for the most part like weight loss clinics, the are selling the magic bullet and want you to believe that a panacea come with no effort. Getting physiological improvement as we age takes a lot of effort and determination. Its not for everyone or all of us old guys would look great. Yea, at some point we are all going to end up in the same place. Its quality of life during the path that make the difference. Dave Draper, former Mr Universe, he was 76 in this picture and died of a massive stroke in his sleep 3 years later.

 

[audiocide]

Testosterone is a very small aspect of what makes you a man.

This, I absolutely agree with.

For example, there are studies proving that TRT doesn't really increase libido, and if it does, is temporary boost, during the honeymoon phase, this is because libido is very complex and many hormones, parameters, both physical, emotional, psychological and mental, play a role into it.

I'd love to see some of those studies. On a respectable dose, the spike in libido is not subtle.

But, you know what? Maybe see someone about the psychological side of it before going into this whole thing.

 

[Naegleria]

It may help a little with libido, probably from higher e2 especially in the honeymoon phase

Im 3 days without the cream and im already seeing some improvements my face looking a bit less bloated

Erections coming back is easier to get hard

No palpitations for now

 

[SteveCleves]

100% agree with you that TRT as it’s presented by clinics is overhyped and IMO most men who are on TRT, or at least “Bro TRT”, would be better off focusing on Diet, exercise and Lifestyle before ever considering TRT.

I don’t agree though that this particular community overhypes TRT. I think most people on this board would agree and this is a place focused on reality and science and experience, this is not the home of Vinnie Boombatz and the TRT boys.


After multiple threads this just comes of as concern trolling.

 

[audiocide]

It may help a little with libido, probably from higher e2 especially in the honeymoon phase

In my experience, even overdoing it with aromatase inhibitors does not diminish the libido effect in a noticable way.

One thing that does, however, is Finasteride.

Edit: I have been on Sustanon for nearly a decade. Long past my "honeymoon" phase.

 

[mikeb29]

Sounds like someone spiked their E2 with all of these out of control emotional posts

 

[Fortunate]

I tried to reply to your other thread, but was having technical difficulties and my post didn’t go through. That said, I think you bring up some great thoughts. However, at this point, you are pontificating.

Keep in mind that these forums have significant, built-in negativity bias, as these are places people come for help. Forums such as these (which, for some have been a godsend) likely do not reflect the population at large that benefits from TRT.

My advice is do it works for you and try to limit the soapbox tirades. People will better digest your opinions if they are not crammed down their throats.

 

[BigTex]

youre not supposed to feel 25 forever, eventually your body will ask for the bill

I wonder if this guy has seen any benefits to using testosterone? Started competing in 1965 and the picture to the right was his last contest at the age of 80. His body has not ask for the bill. Not exactly seeing that TRT downward dwindling spiral you keep talking about.

Ahhhh....the libedo thing:

These data demonstrate a clear relationship between restoring serum T concentrations and improvement in certain parameters of sexual function. We propose that threshold T levels are needed in order to significantly affect improvements in sexual functioning.

Restorative increases in serum testosterone levels are significantly correlated to improvements in sexual functioning - PubMed

<p>It is recognized that testosterone (T) levels decrease in men with age, as does sexual function. We hypothesize that T supplementation in hypogonadal men with sexual dysfunction will restore certain elements of sexual function. Hypogonadal male subjects (total T < or = 300 ng/dL, n = 406...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

​

Discussion​

Using the MMAS cohort data, we examined mean T (TT and BT) levels as a function of men’s libido in the context of age and other covariates. The relationship between libido and T levels was statistically significant in both unadjusted and adjusted models.

The Relationship between Libido and Testosterone Levels in Aging Men

Abstract. Context: Although it is known that serum testosterone (T) concentrations are related to libido, the strength of that relationship in community-dwellin

academic.oup.com

In aging males - Significant improvements in spontaneous erections, sexual desire, and sexual motivation were also evidenced with the 100 mg/d AA2500 dose in comparison with placebo.

AA2500 testosterone gel normalizes androgen levels in aging males with improvements in body composition and sexual function - PubMed

Testosterone replacement in hypogonadal men improves body composition, mood, and sexual functioning. In this 90-d study, we compared the pharmacokinetics and treatment effectiveness of a topical testosterone gel (AA2500) at two concentrations, 50 mg/d and 100 mg/d, to a testosterone patch and...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Dose-dependent effects of testosterone on sexual function, mood, and visuospatial cognition in older men - PubMed

Different aspects of male behavior respond differently to testosterone. When considered together with previous data from young men, these data indicate that testosterone dose-response relationships for sexual function and visuospatial cognition differ in older and young men.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov