Question on recent labs

AH2261

New Member
Hey guys,

Been a while since I've been on the forum, but wanted to get some feedback on recent blood work.

I've tried an EOD protocol for roughly 6-8 weeks of 28mg Test Cyp and nothing else. I do have AI on hand, but don't use it regularly, but every so often when i feel the high estro sides creeping up I will take a half tab of arimidex.

Total Test - 1012 - range 240-1110
Free Test - 195.3 - range 35.0 - 155.0
SHBG - 35 - rANGE 10-50
Estradiol Ultra Senstive - 30 range < 29

I will add that I did take a half tab of arimidex roughly 9-10 days prior to these labs, so it may have lowered my estro a bit more in these labs than it really is..but I'd imagine that it cleared my system by then.



Should i be concerned with the above normal free test? Overall I ok but libido is definitely down and after so many days i definitely feel the estro creeping up, but I've always been reluctant to take an AI consistently with all the talk of how harmful they can be, and not necessary if you dial in your dose and inj. frequency.

I'm considering of taking possibly a quarter tab once or twice a week and keep the dose the same or possibly lower the dose a bit. Also, considering going back to mon/thur inj frequency as EOD has been a bit of a pain with my work travel schedule for work.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. I do have an appt with doc at the end of the month, but figured I'd toss it out here as well.
 

Cataceous

Well-Known Member
Chances are your testosterone levels don't fluctuate a lot on this protocol. Mine didn't seem to vary much on EOD enanthate. You have normal SHBG, so your elevated total testosterone implies high free testosterone as well, which is reflected in your test result. Try to abandon any "more is better" thinking. It doesn't apply to hormones when you're trying to optimize overall wellbeing. Instead think "average is better".

Consider an analogy in the standards for human attractiveness. You might automatically think that those judged most attractive must have exceptional features in some ways. But research demonstrates it's the opposite. The most attractive individuals seem to have the most average set of features. The more extreme the variations in features, the less attractive an individual becomes.

So what is a good average for hormone levels in human males? We want it to be in guys at their prime, so around 25-30 years old. Roughly then we're talking about peak total testosterone of 600-700 ng/dL, SHBG around 30 nMol/L, and estradiol around 30 pg/mL.

Having total testosterone above 1,000 ng/dL might help a little with muscles and athleticism, but chances are you are paying a price elsewhere, at a minimum in needing an AI, which may cause problems of its own. With your numbers I would consider a dose reduction of 20-30%. Reductions are harder than increases. You have to be prepared to possibly feel worse before improving. But it's worth it to end up in a healthier place.
 

AH2261

New Member
Thank you for such a detailed response. greatly appreciated! Question, based on shbg, do you think going to a 3)e3.5 day protocal should be fine? EOD has been manageable, but would prefer to spread it ou for overall simplicity with my business travel schedule.

I'm right outside the range for estrogen, and from what I've read that shouldn't be the concern, instead treat symptoms which I am having in terms of libido, erec quality, amd a bit of water weight.
 

mooseman109

Active Member
So your numbers are at the top end but you say low libido, which is why I assume you are keeping high numbers. When yo say low libido, do you mean little drive to want to have sex?
 

Cataceous

Well-Known Member
Thank you for such a detailed response. greatly appreciated! Question, based on shbg, do you think going to a 3)e3.5 day protocal should be fine? EOD has been manageable, but would prefer to spread it ou for overall simplicity with my business travel schedule.

I'm right outside the range for estrogen, and from what I've read that shouldn't be the concern, instead treat symptoms which I am having in terms of libido, erec quality, amd a bit of water weight.
Your normal SHBG should make you less sensitive to larger and longer swings in testosterone and estradiol—at least compared to those with low SHBG. So you could probably get away with twice-weekly injections.

Lowering your dose should help with the water retention. The simultaneous reduction in estradiol could possibly help with libido and erection quality if these issues are a result of higher prolactin. However, these problems can have a variety of sources. I believe that suppression of upstream hormones by TRT is one of these. Many find the addition of hCG to be helpful.
 

AH2261

New Member
low drive and not maintaining quality erectoln....that said, I'm getting morning wood more consistently... i wouldn't say it's very bad; but definitely feel like it points to signs of high estro...I've had low, so i know what that feels like. My skin also gets a bit oily
 

AH2261

New Member
in efforts to not add to many variables or changes to my protocal, would you suggest 20% drop in test and small amount of AI, or just start with test drop?
 

Cataceous

Well-Known Member
I would go for the dose reduction and only use the AI if it seems really necessary. The hope is that when you get stabilized on lower levels of testosterone then you won't need the AI. Also, don't take more than 0.25 mg of anastrozole at one time. Less would even be preferred, if you don't mind fussing with self-compounding, e.g. diluting a tablet in vodka and dosing by volume.
 

mooseman109

Active Member
I am also in the lower the dose camp. I am slow in everything with this. make small adjustments and give it time in between.
Have you checked you DHEA? Seems for some guys it plays a roll in libido. It did nothing for me.
 

AH2261

New Member
I am also in the lower the dose camp. I am slow in everything with this. make small adjustments and give it time in between.
Have you checked you DHEA? Seems for some guys it plays a roll in libido. It did nothing for me.

did not check dhea nor have i ever supplemented with it. I'll look into it and ask my doc.
 

Vince

Super Moderator
I agree with the others, lower your dose of T to 20 mg EOD. No need for an AI, will only cause more issues. I would consider adding low-dose cialis and HCG.

With that T levels your E2 is good and would still be good at higher levels.
 

AH2261

New Member
Thanks for all the replies. Another question, everything I've read in regards to going with a ED or EOD protocol indicates that most are able to achieve high test numbers with overall lower weekly totals. If I was to attempt to go to a ever 3.5 days schedule, would you suggest I keep the weekly dose I currently have in place, or would you recommend I still lower the dose 20%? I'm leaning towards going to a inj protocol that's more realistic to sustain longer term for me.
 

Cataceous

Well-Known Member
Thanks for all the replies. Another question, everything I've read in regards to going with a ED or EOD protocol indicates that most are able to achieve high test numbers with overall lower weekly totals. If I was to attempt to go to a ever 3.5 days schedule, would you suggest I keep the weekly dose I currently have in place, or would you recommend I still lower the dose 20%? I'm leaning towards going to a inj protocol that's more realistic to sustain longer term for me.
The apparent "high test numbers" achieved with more frequent injections are somewhat of an illusion. For the same total weekly dose of testosterone the average serum level is going to be about the same, whether you're injecting weekly or daily. The problem is that the troughs measured with weekly injections are much lower than the average. Meanwhile, the post-injection peaks are almost ridiculously high. For example, a guy measures a trough of 500 ng/dL on weekly injections of 70 mg TC. He switches to daily injections of 10 mg TC and now measures serum testosterone at 1,000 ng/dL. He thinks, "Wow, daily injections doubled my testosterone!" But in reality, with weekly injections his post-injection peak was 1,500 ng/dL, and levels would decline over the week to 500 ng/dL. But the average is still 1,000 ng/dL with either injection schedule.

This is directly applicable to your situation. Let's assume you're seeing little hormonal variation on EOD dosing, so your average serum testosterone is about 1,000 ng/dL. If you switch to E3.5D injections with the same total weekly doses then you might start measuring troughs around 800 ng/dL. Your peaks could be around 1,200 ng/dL. The average stays at 1,000.

This may not improve the side effects of excessive dosing, and could make them worse due to the higher peaks. You still want the dose reduction to put your peaks somewhere below 1,000 ng/dL, while not letting the troughs get too low. It's an extra variable to fuss with, which is a point in favor of dialing in with frequent injections before experimenting with greater swings in serum testosterone.
 

AH2261

New Member
The apparent "high test numbers" achieved with more frequent injections are somewhat of an illusion. For the same total weekly dose of testosterone the average serum level is going to be about the same, whether you're injecting weekly or daily. The problem is that the troughs measured with weekly injections are much lower than the average. Meanwhile, the post-injection peaks are almost ridiculously high. For example, a guy measures a trough of 500 ng/dL on weekly injections of 70 mg TC. He switches to daily injections of 10 mg TC and now measures serum testosterone at 1,000 ng/dL. He thinks, "Wow, daily injections doubled my testosterone!" But in reality, with weekly injections his post-injection peak was 1,500 ng/dL, and levels would decline over the week to 500 ng/dL. But the average is still 1,000 ng/dL with either injection schedule.

This is directly applicable to your situation. Let's assume you're seeing little hormonal variation on EOD dosing, so your average serum testosterone is about 1,000 ng/dL. If you switch to E3.5D injections with the same total weekly doses then you might start measuring troughs around 800 ng/dL. Your peaks could be around 1,200 ng/dL. The average stays at 1,000.

This may not improve the side effects of excessive dosing, and could make them worse due to the higher peaks. You still want the dose reduction to put your peaks somewhere below 1,000 ng/dL, while not letting the troughs get too low. It's an extra variable to fuss with, which is a point in favor of dialing in with frequent injections before experimenting with greater swings in serum testosterone.

This makes total sense. Thank you for such an indepth response.
 

AH2261

New Member
I know i should focus on addressing things one variable at a time, but the one item I've never added was Hcg. I read that it is must have for many on trt, while other's don't see any value and at times negative results. I know it's based on individual, but considering at some point to introduce a low dose to see if it helps with libido and overall enhance my trt protocal.
 

slicktop

Active Member
lots of good advice here.... just thought I'd chime in to say adding in DIM helps to clear estrogen as well, and it's not nearly as aggressive as a typical AI and there's no potential side effects AFAIK.
 

Mark Saur

Active Member
lots of good advice here.... just thought I'd chime in to say adding in DIM helps to clear estrogen as well, and it's not nearly as aggressive as a typical AI and there's no potential side effects AFAIK.
how much to you think it lowers your estrogen? I did not see much from it.
 

slicktop

Active Member
well, I don't have a set number or percentage. DIM does a good job of clearing estrogen out of your system once it's produced, whereas a true AI helps less estrogen get produced in the first place. Think of AI's as Border Patrol and DIM as ICE.
 

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