Optimum Testosterone Levels...... The truth...

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Beken

Member
I was diagnosed with low T at 168.2 TT and 2.9 FT. I've been on my TRT journey for 3 months. I feel great at 262 TT and 10.3 FT. But due to ongoing side effects I will be stopping my current protocol in the effort of trying to maximize my natural levels after making a handful of changes with my lifestyle, diet and overall health.

How can we know our 'optimum levels' if we don't have labs from when we were at age 18-25? If I am feeling good at 262 TT right now... could it be that I maxed out at say 500 TT when I was 18 years old and at age 44 300 TT is sufficient in a pure HRT scenario?

I guess we would have to define HRT. In my mind true HRT would be getting your testosterone back to the natural level... as God intended... before outside sources or poor choices depleted our hormones.

Is the industry over prescribing dosing protocols in a true HRT scenerio?

Obviously I am talking pure Hormone Replace Therapy. I'm not talking about guys who want to get jacked or blast and cruise.

I see a lot of guys on here who are stacking drugs, supplements and workout protocols just to maintain there 'optimum level'. I doesn't seem right or it doesn't seem natural. Especially when you see guys doing well on lower dose protocols.

I'd be interest to know if guys do well at lower testosterone levels...

Thanks.
 
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bixt

Well-Known Member
If you are getting side effects at 262TT you have some serious other problem. Unless perhaps this is the trough of an extremely long frequency protocol?

"Lower" level TRT would probably be interpreted as levels of around 600-700TT/15-20ft. IMO probably the best all round levels for everything except muscle size.

262ng is downright hypogonadal in anyone's book, but if you feel good there, thats where you need to be..
 

Beken

Member
I see guys on forums who 'claim' to have low T side effects at 400 or 500 TT. I felt like a crack head when I was at or above 500 TT.

When I look at the charts it states that a healthy level of testosterone for a 18 year old male is between 300 and 1200.

Can I 18 year old with levels of 400 feel good and be as healthy as a guy at 1100?

If that's the case... why do TRT clinics push to get guys at higher numbers?
 

JmarkH

Active Member
If you've only been on treatment for 12 weeks and you have already made adjustments [up to 500 down to 260] then you haven't given any of it a chance to stabilize. The bare minimum to stay on a protocol is 6 - 8 weeks. Unless you've done that while at 500 then you don't really know what it does to you.
You do make a good point that we are all individuals and our personal best will be a bit different.
 

FunkOdyssey

Well-Known Member
I see guys on forums who 'claim' to have low T side effects at 400 or 500 TT. I felt like a crack head when I was at or above 500 TT.
You are a special case because your SHBG is extremely low. You've never told us your SHBG value, but it would have to be rock bottom in order for you to have a free T of 10+ ng/dl with a total T of 262. You feel symptom resolution at a "hypogonadal total T" because free T is the cause of a eugonadal or hypogonadal state -- total T is basically irrelevant. Your free T is in the normal range right now.

Low SHBG is usually caused by some combination of metabolic syndrome / diabetes or pre-diabetes / obesity.
 

bixt

Well-Known Member
If that's the case... why do TRT clinics push to get guys at higher numbers?

Any good drug dealer sells what his clients ask for, not what is best for them.

More T is surely more "ballz" and more "manliness" and who doesn't want more of that?

Somewhere along the line we have all (myself include) been duped into thinking more manliness means the man has more T. We look up at the Rock and think surely he is high T!* Thats what we have been conditioned to think. We all want to be the alpha male and jack up our T in the hopes of being the leader of the troop.

It's been a false promise my friends.

It's been proven through 10000 posts a high level is not the "optimal" level. An optimal level may be closer to 20ft which in many cases is 700 or so TT and resulting from a dose of "only" 70-100mg a week.

* bad example, the rock is probably on grams and grams of steroids.
 

Mr.63

Member
I have one close friend who is not on trt and he tested his blood on testosterone.
He was just at 250TT but cant remember his FT. He feels perfectly fine. Has a great libido and he is a very optimistic guy.

Then there is this other guy i know from the gym who is also a natural guy. Just trains for fun and is all for natural training. He once tested his blood to and his TT came back at 280. FT was not tested. He claims he also feels good all the time. Has a good libido. No low t symptoms.

So yes there are guys who can be perfectly fine with low t. There is absolutely more to it then T only.
 

Systemlord

Member
I guess we would have to define HRT. In my mind true HRT would be getting your testosterone back to the natural level...
A natural level, natural is any level that is a “natural” level. If by optimal level, some men never have good testosterone levels because we are not all created equal.
I'd be interest to know if guys do well at lower testosterone levels...
No, I do not do well even with mid range Free T levels.

 

JmarkH

Active Member
I was having all the ADAM symptoms with 573 TT and 14 FT {range 6.6 18.1}. HCG and Enclomiphene fixed it and got me to 956 TT and 17.3 FT. This is the best I've felt; spirit, mind, and body, in decades.
 

BigTex

Well-Known Member
I see guys on forums who 'claim' to have low T side effects at 400 or 500 TT. I felt like a crack head when I was at or above 500 TT.

When I look at the charts it states that a healthy level of testosterone for a 18 year old male is between 300 and 1200.

Can I 18 year old with levels of 400 feel good and be as healthy as a guy at 1100?

If that's the case... why do TRT clinics push to get guys at higher numbers?
Unfortunately the CDC sets these norms which encourages the doctors to treat numbers and not the symptoms of low T. If you have a 400 T level and have all the symptoms of low T, then you need to be treated. On the other hand if you are at 250, feel great and have no symptoms, then you do not need to be treated.
 

Beken

Member
You are a special case because your SHBG is extremely low. You've never told us your SHBG value, but it would have to be rock bottom in order for you to have a free T of 10+ ng/dl with a total T of 262. You feel symptom resolution at a "hypogonadal total T" because free T is the cause of a eugonadal or hypogonadal state -- total T is basically irrelevant. Your free T is in the normal range right now.

Low SHBG is usually caused by some combination of metabolic syndrome / diabetes or pre-diabetes / obesity.
My current SHBG is 22.7. Is that good or bad?
 

Beken

Member
I have one close friend who is not on trt and he tested his blood on testosterone.
He was just at 250TT but cant remember his FT. He feels perfectly fine. Has a great libido and he is a very optimistic guy.

Then there is this other guy i know from the gym who is also a natural guy. Just trains for fun and is all for natural training. He once tested his blood to and his TT came back at 280. FT was not tested. He claims he also feels good all the time. Has a good libido. No low t symptoms.

So yes there are guys who can be perfectly fine with low t. There is absolutely more to it then T only.

Have we been conditioned to think a guy at 250 or 300 TT is low T? When the reality is that he is simply in a spectrum? I know this is a thought exercise... but I see so many young people going on TRT because they are influenced by the number. I'm just asking questions....
 
Have we been conditioned to think a guy at 250 or 300 TT is low T? When the reality is that he is simply in a spectrum? I know this is a thought exercise... but I see so many young people going on TRT because they are influenced by the number. I'm just asking questions....
I get what you’re saying, there are many factors now showing other physical and psychological roadblocks to trt. For example, genetic testing (which I understand is new and not fully proven yet) can show SNPs on GAD1, MAO-A, and COMT that can all react poorly to androgens and can ramp the brain up with too much NE and DA. I truly believe that many guys can make their situations worse on TRT from even a purely physiological standpoint. I’ve seen so many guys (an am one myself in some regards) that tinker with dosage protocol, amount, timing, shbg, e2, dht, etc. etc. and never feel relief. Then you have other guys that do great saying, “Just take your T and stop being a baby.” I don’t think it works the same for everyone.

On the psychological side one can already dealing with OCD, anxiety, etc and hormones are not always going to solve that issue at all. There can be trauma, high stress, marriage issues, self-confidence, all kinds of stuff. Not to mention nutritional deficiencies, lifestyle issues, etc.

So you‘re struggling with erections? Feeling tired? Feel “beta” and no one takes you seriously? I don’t think getting T in the 1500s and getting jacked it going to change anything in that regard. Sometimes maybe therapy or some kind of life realization is the solution there.

There are many, many guys who T does fix the issue, but there are just as many that it doesn’t. I think sometimes we get a bit of tunnel vision with regards to T. A guy can be tweeting his TRT 50 times to get erections when it can be an underlying relationship problem, stress, or anything one of a million other issues. A number isn’t going to fix a stressful life.
 

Belekas

Active Member
I have one close friend who is not on trt and he tested his blood on testosterone.
He was just at 250TT but cant remember his FT. He feels perfectly fine. Has a great libido and he is a very optimistic guy.

Then there is this other guy i know from the gym who is also a natural guy. Just trains for fun and is all for natural training. He once tested his blood to and his TT came back at 280. FT was not tested. He claims he also feels good all the time. Has a good libido. No low t symptoms.

So yes there are guys who can be perfectly fine with low t. There is absolutely more to it then T only.
Exactly. I can add to this but on the other side of the spectrum. My dad is 64, never lifted weights in his life, maybe some when he was a teen, smoked like a chimney for many years, used to drink heavy as well. Now a lot of years sober and not smoking. His TT levels around 500s+ng/dl iirc and FT 0.3X closer to 0.4nmol/l (calculated) as I need to find his blood test fwiw. Now hes the most unmotivated, undriven and undiscliplined, and more less negative person I know, who only likes to do his business and pretty much nothing else, and most of the time even gets on my moms nerves, if you know what I mean. I'm the opposite of him, motivated, disciplined and always striving to get better each and every day and my FT is barely 1/2 of his, but I've used some AAS in my life, but also had liver disease, smoked for nearly 3 decades, drank and abused drugs. So thats one example. Another would be my totally fit friend, I remember flew from Denmark and did all extensive blood test several years ago. Eats great, trains proper(my student), maybe a joint here and there and he tested TT288 yet hes the best feeling person I probably know. Motivated, disciplined and positive. So there you have it, two different sides of the coin and def a lot more to this then people want to believe :)

Regards.

Regards.
 

Beken

Member
Exactly. I can add to this but on the other side of the spectrum. My dad is 64, never lifted weights in his life, maybe some when he was a teen, smoked like a chimney for many years, used to drink heavy as well. Now a lot of years sober and not smoking. His TT levels around 500s+ng/dl iirc and FT 0.3X closer to 0.4nmol/l (calculated) as I need to find his blood test fwiw. Now hes the most unmotivated, undriven and undiscliplined, and more less negative person I know, who only likes to do his business and pretty much nothing else, and most of the time even gets on my moms nerves, if you know what I mean. I'm the opposite of him, motivated, disciplined and always striving to get better each and every day and my FT is barely 1/2 of his, but I've used some AAS in my life, but also had liver disease, smoked for nearly 3 decades, drank and abused drugs. So thats one example. Another would be my totally fit friend, I remember flew from Denmark and did all extensive blood test several years ago. Eats great, trains proper(my student), maybe a joint here and there and he tested TT288 yet hes the best feeling person I probably know. Motivated, disciplined and positive. So there you have it, two different sides of the coin and def a lot more to this then people want to believe :)

Regards.

Regards.
I starting to wonder how many people are misdiagnosed based on numbers or they are at supra physiological levels that are doing harm to their body. My doctor didn't talk to me about how to raise my T levels naturally. I was eating a lot of sugar. I wasn't exercising. I was on medication that lowers T levels. And I had sleep apnea. The doctor literally said to me... "You have the testosterone of a woman.". I told him my concerns about TRT and I thought that I had room to raise it naturally. He told me..."I can't treat you and you're not going to feel better unless you go on TRT.". My main complaint was feeling tire.... little did I know at the time that I had sleep apnea. I also told the doctor that I want to have kids still. He didn't talk to me about Clomid, nasal gels or HCG. I think these TRT mills and doctors need to be called out and exposed.

 

Belekas

Active Member
I starting to wonder how many people are misdiagnosed based on numbers or they are at supra physiological levels that are doing harm to their body. My doctor didn't talk to me about how to raise my T levels naturally. I was eating a lot of sugar. I wasn't exercising. I was on medication that lowers T levels. And I had sleep apnea. The doctor literally said to me... "You have the testosterone of a woman.". I told him my concerns about TRT and I thought that I had room to raise it naturally. He told me..."I can't treat you and you're not going to feel better unless you go on TRT.". My main complaint was feeling tire.... little did I know at the time that I had sleep apnea. I also told the doctor that I want to have kids still. He didn't talk to me about Clomid, nasal gels or HCG. I think these TRT mills and doctors need to be called out and exposed.

Fair points you mentioned there Beken and its a sad world we live in but IIWII. Big pharma has a hand on all of them and it doesn't pay to get you healthy cuz you won't return so they need to keep you lingering so you come back over and over again searching for that magical pill, protocol or drug or whatever. They basically drug dealers only legal. I don't say for every Doc out there but like you said these TRT mills are def a money making cows these days pushing supra levels right out of the gate that leaves people feeling great for a while and then having problems long-term. Offering this and that over and over again, then after 5 years and $1000s spent, people just give up.

So thats why it's cruicial to learn critical thinking and do all the research and studying by yourself. Think red pill vs blue pill. And these days when people are softer then butter they all just want a red pill that will save their lazy ass from XYZ and just be done with it. It's really funny and sad at the same time but IIWII. Also it always pays to have different opinions but at the end its all on you anyway.

Exhausting all natural options, getting your ass from the couch, learning to eat, hydrate and think properly will go a long long way that most people have no idea about it. But its a long process and usually folks run out of patience and they relapse into their old habits looking for the next best fix online watching youtube.
 

BigTex

Well-Known Member
Fair points you mentioned there Beken and its a sad world we live in but IIWII. Big pharma has a hand on all of them and it doesn't pay to get you healthy cuz you won't return so they need to keep you lingering so you come back over and over again searching for that magical pill, protocol or drug or whatever. They basically drug dealers only legal. I don't say for every Doc out there but like you said these TRT mills are def a money making cows these days pushing supra levels right out of the gate that leaves people feeling great for a while and then having problems long-term. Offering this and that over and over again, then after 5 years and $1000s spent, people just give up.

So thats why it's cruicial to learn critical thinking and do all the research and studying by yourself. Think red pill vs blue pill. And these days when people are softer then butter they all just want a red pill that will save their lazy ass from XYZ and just be done with it. It's really funny and sad at the same time but IIWII. Also it always pays to have different opinions but at the end its all on you anyway.

Exhausting all natural options, getting your ass from the couch, learning to eat, hydrate and think properly will go a long long way that most people have no idea about it. But its a long process and usually folks run out of patience and they relapse into their old habits looking for the next best fix online watching youtube.
@Belekas. You should spend a day watching American TV, it one big pharma drug commercial after another. We have become the sickest country in the world taking pills for everything. Critical thinking is something that doesn't exist much in society.
 

tropicaldaze1950

Active Member
Have we been conditioned to think a guy at 250 or 300 TT is low T? When the reality is that he is simply in a spectrum? I know this is a thought exercise... but I see so many young people going on TRT because they are influenced by the number. I'm just asking questions....
An incompetent or unscrupulous doctor or a testosterone mill, IMO, won't do a thorough work up or have a thorough discussion with the patient. A knowledgeable doctor, in tandem with labs, will have a thorough, thoughtful discussion, asking questions, with the goal of establishing if TRT is appropriate. It is established that testosterone numbers in young men are declining. If someone is symptomatic, especially with sexual dysfunction, it needs to be addressed. And, yes, there are young men, even teenagers, buying underground testosterone and/or other anabolic drugs j for the sole purpose of getting a jacked up physique. They're risking their health and their life. But I don't put them in the same category as young men with symptoms of low T who've lost their sex drive, erections, are depressed and fatigued.

As to whether less is more, when prescribing testosterone, seems to be an ongoing debate. Treating by symptom resolution, whatever dose achieves that, should be the goal.
 
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