Keto vs. Plant Based Diet

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Jinzang

Member
The diets which have recently gotten the most attention in the media are the ketogenic and low fat plant based diets. Up until now there have been no studies comparing the two diets head to head in a controlled clinical setting. But now there is, a crossover study where the participants ate each diet for two weeks. They were allowed to eat as much as they wished (ad libitum) and the study tracked the calories consumed as well as other health markers. The study has not yet been published, but the abstract is available along with a downloadable preprint on the same site. The abstract says:

"Competing models of obesity and its treatment often contrast the relative roles of dietary fat versus carbohydrate. Advocates of low-carbohydrate diets posit that intake of high glycemic carbohydrates leads to elevated postprandial insulin thereby promoting body fat accumulation while increasing hunger and energy intake according to the carbohydrate-insulin model of obesity. Alternatively, proponents of low-fat diets argue that high fat intake promotes body fat storage due to passive overconsumption of energy resulting from the high energy density of dietary fat. To test these competing models, 20 adults without diabetes aged (mean±SE) 29.9±1.4 y with BMI=27.8±1.3 kg/m 2 were admitted as inpatients to the NIH Clinical Center and randomized to consume ad libitum either a plant-based, low-fat (PBLF) diet (75.2% carbohydrate, 10.3% fat, non-beverage energy density = 1.1 kcal/g) or an animal-based, ketogenic, low-carbohydrate (ABLC) diet (75.8% fat,10.0% carbohydrate, non-beverage energy density = 2.2 kcal/g) for two weeks followed immediately by the alternate diet for two weeks. Three daily meals plus snacks amounting to twice each subject’s estimated energy requirements were provided and subjects were instructed to eat as much or as little as desired. The PBLF diet resulted in substantially greater glucose and insulin levels whereas the ABLC diet led to increased blood ketones of ~3 mM which is thought to suppress appetite. However, ad libitum energy intake was 689±73 kcal/d lower during the PBLF diet as compared to the ABLC diet (p<0.0001) with no significant differences in appetite ratings or enjoyment of meals. These data challenge the veracity of the carbohydrate-insulin model of obesity and suggest that the PBLF diet had benefits for appetite control whereas the ABLC diet had benefits for lowering blood glucose and insulin."
 
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Guided_by_Voices

Well-Known Member
There are many people who do a plant-based keto or low-carb diet. I am not one of them but there is a vegan keto FB group and the book ketotarian for those who are interested
 

Vince

Super Moderator
"Improve health" is not measurable and not specific enough to classify as a goal in my opinion.
The only reason I went to a low-carb diet. Was to improve my LDL particles. I actually didn't believe it would, I was more like you just eat healthy, good meals, a nice variety of food. I was proven wrong by my doctor. It's my choice, I'm not telling you or anyone else to eat like I do. Who really wants Labs every 3 months like I get. :-(
 

Vince

Super Moderator
Vince,

Can you elaborate on how the low carb diet helped your LDL particles? I would be interested to know.

Thanks
When I switch to a low-carb diet. I lowered my LDL small particles and my medium sized particles and increase my large particles. How does it work, beats me. I believe by lowering my spiking of insulin, it improve my HDL, LDL and triglycerides.
 

sokaiya

Active Member
The only reason I went to a low-carb diet. Was to improve my LDL particles. I actually didn't believe it would, I was more like you just eat healthy, good meals, a nice variety of food. I was proven wrong by my doctor. It's my choice, I'm not telling you or anyone else to eat like I do. Who really wants Labs every 3 months like I get. :-(

What's low carbohydrate for you? Give me an idea in Grams/Day.

Two Reasons for high LDL:

1.) You are burning a lot of body fat. Basically for someone that is lean, healthy and on a low carbohydrate diet, chances it's the normal, healthy LDL that is mobilizing the triglycerides and you have fat to be burned. Just when you start losing weight and you are mobilizing your triglycerides.

2.) Insulin increase - basically LDL goes up because of the sugar.

The way to properly sort this out would be with a fractionation test. Or just take the standard lipid profile and analyze that: E.g. if HDL is within a decent range that's good, and triglycerides are low, that's also good, and if your Hba1C is reasonable like <5.6, then you can almost guarantee that LDL is high because it's good LDL.
 

Vince

Super Moderator
What's low carbohydrate for you? Give me an idea in Grams/Day.

Two Reasons for high LDL:

1.) You are burning a lot of body fat. Basically for someone that is lean, healthy and on a low carbohydrate diet, chances it's the normal, healthy LDL that is mobilizing the triglycerides and you have fat to be burned. Just when you start losing weight and you are mobilizing your triglycerides.

2.) Insulin increase - basically LDL goes up because of the sugar.

The way to properly sort this out would be with a fractionation test. Or just take the standard lipid profile and analyze that: E.g. if HDL is within a decent range that's good, and triglycerides are low, that's also good, and if your Hba1C is reasonable like <5.6, then you can almost guarantee that LDL is high because it's good LDL.
I always get a complete cholesterol lipid panel, along with my HDL particles. Yes I do good A1C under 5.5, fasting glucose 80, insulin, glycomark, c-peptide.

I should count carbs, I don't. I stick to a good low carb no starchy food.
 
The biggest problem i have is these studys that are two weeks long.Theres no way they can give us good info from that,they may be smart but most of us have been doing trial and error for years.I guess they need something to write about.
I feel my best when i eat carbs in moderation (165LB=135-175 grams) i do notice i will put on belly fat if i get out of control.
I have been tracking my calories and macros for years trying to find the best fit for me.I have tried everything and what seems to work for me is simple.No processed food and very little alcohol,eat mainly single ingredient meals,eat lots of veggies,Lots of meat of all kinds,some starches on workout days and some dairy, buckwheat,whole oats or oat bran from time to time.I eat a balanced diet of around 30/35/35and on workout days i might switch to 40/30/30.
 

spbill

New Member
Another useless study based on calories consumed. It is widely know that individuals consume more calories a ketogenic ad libitum diet especially at first (from a few weeks up to three months.) A small amount of weight can be gained during this introductory phase in some individuals before they begin to lose weight. Many lose weight almost immediately despite consuming substantially more calories on the ketogenic diet that they previously consumed at a maintenance level on a mixed diet. All calories are NOT the same. Look at the results not the amount of calories especially on such a short time frame study.
 
One thing I know about diet is that works is unique to the individual, especially when a person is dealing with a metabolic disorder. I am a type 2 diabetic who went on a whole-foods, plant-based diet against the advice of my endo. The ADA diet absolutely did not work for me. My endo was pushing me to go high animal protein, low-carb, but I have never been a big meat eater. It trashes my digestive track, gives.me wicked heartburn, and leads to horrible constipation.

I started to follow the work of Dr. Joel Fuhrman. He had case after case where he was able to get people off of meds with plant-based diets. My bloodwork was so radically different than it had been after ninety days on the diet that my endo thought that there had have been a mistake at the lab. My triglycerides dropped from the 250s to under 150. My hbA1C dropped from 6.5 to 5.6. Within a year, my liver enzymes were normal for the first time in 20 years (my endo was able to reduce my medication from three oral medications to just metformin), and felt better than I had in years.

Anyone who believes that a whole-foods, plant-based diet is some kind of fad is clueless about nutrition. The reason why most people who try it fail is because they replace animal protein with starch. All this type of person is doing is eating the same way while cutting out animal protein. That leads to poor health. It takes effort to switch from animal based sources of protein and fat to plant-based sources of fat and complete proteins. It also requires a new way of looking at food preparation. I was always hungry when following the ADA diet. I was never hungry after switching to a whole-foods, plant-based diet and I lost weight for the first time in 20 years. I am now a firm believer that animal flesh is a secondary source of protein, which has become even more devoid of nutrition with the shift to factory farming. It is not an ethical decision for me. It is a health decision.

 

Jinzang

Member
Another useless study based on calories consumed. It is widely know that individuals consume more calories a ketogenic ad libitum diet especially at first (from a few weeks up to three months.) A small amount of weight can be gained during this introductory phase in some individuals before they begin to lose weight. Many lose weight almost immediately despite consuming substantially more calories on the ketogenic diet that they previously consumed at a maintenance level on a mixed diet. All calories are NOT the same. Look at the results not the amount of calories especially on such a short time frame study.

There's an initial rapid weight loss on the ketogenic diet because glycogen stores are depleted and glycogen holds water in the muscles. The initial weight loss is mostly water. Over the longer term ketogenic diets do well for weight loss, but it's thought mostly because of the sameness of the diet limits eating solely for the sake of pleasure. Plant based diets have also been shown to do well for weight loss, probably for similar reasons. The moral is that you should eat boring food if you want to lose weight.

Clinical studies like this are valuable because compliance with the diet is guaranteed and regular measurements are easy to make. Failure to comply with the diet people say they are following is a confounding factor in the study of diets.
 

JohnTaylorHK

Active Member
I believe the bodybuilder Ryan Humiston follows a plant based keto diet. Plant based is hard and keto is hard. I would think doing both is doubly hard.
Agree about plant-based diets, I couldn't manage it. I did, however, find great success with a ketogenic diet, and still follow (just) today, after 3 years. For detractors, a "fad diet" is where you follow a regime because it's fashionable, rather like someone who buys a BMW to show his neighbours how much money he has (conspicuous wealth) rather than actually needing it. I prefer the term "n=1 experiment", as I have tried just about every diet that has ever been published. Keto was the only one that ever worked with any great measure of success, over and above the weight losses due to mere calorie restriction. I started with a 4-day water fast (which would throw most folks off for a start) and proceeded from there. I have also tried several variants of Keto, but find myself unable to plan a "Ketotarian" diet (I have the book) as I find I just cannot get the nutrition I know that I need from plants. Getting nutrition and exercise under control is like quitting smoking. If you can't do it, you don't really want to. Namaste.
 

camygod

Active Member
The ketogenic diet was developed for children suffering epileptic seizures it was never intended for optimum diet health but is a better alternative than having seizures each meal contained heavy whipping cream and basically replacing any carbs calories with fat and not lots of meat and protein
I find it strange that it's become so popular as a diet especially in America when most of the healthiest populations in the world follow a balanced diet but I guess it's easy for people to blame one macro nutrient than just be accountable for the over consumption and abundance of calorie
rich food available in the modern world
 
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