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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Testosterone Side Effect Management
Yet another fertility, ancillary case following long term TRT
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<blockquote data-quote="zat954" data-source="post: 130512" data-attributes="member: 36336"><p>Hey Vince, I pulled everything Defy needed, including lipids, hormones, full CBC etc. I knew theres a high possibility for estrogen conversion, especially at that dose. The Enclomiphene is only one isomer in Clomid, which demonstrates complete antagonism of the E receptors. Even at only 25mg ED, my <u>Estradiol is only 10!</u> If I keep on the monotherapy I definitely either need to cut it in half, or switch over to the Adex Dr. Saya gave me just in case I needed it. It definitely works, and in my discussion with the doc he actually prefers it to Clomid for the antiestrogenic activity. I have a good research chem brand, which is apparently TOO effective if its bottoming out my E and had my FSH at 4.5 at this dose after only 90 days.</p><p></p><p>At this point I think the Leydig cells have been shocked into action, and the HCG can come down. Im starting to feel that less is more in most situations. Nelson put up some good info on 500iu EOD being ideal, but thats with coadministration of test, so Im not sure what to do here. As for spermatogenesis, most of the other long term cases I have read say I need to do the same thing I did with the HCG with the FSH: Blast it to super-physiological levels that will promote accelerated recovery, then lower it to maintenance. One study I found on a 37yo career bodybuilder showed that <em>90 days of high dose HCG (@30,000iu/wk!!!) and 75iu/day FSH fully and permanently restored his azoospermia, reversed his low T (he started at only 7ng/dl), and low gonadotropins; 3 months following the termination of the study, semen parameters remained above normal level, morphology/motility improved to 100%, and the couple conceived at 7 months after the study</em>. Interestingly they dont mention using any estrogen blocker in the study, which seems pertinent at 30K units a week of HCG, but the outcome is impressive. Most other studies use 1500-5000iu 2-3x/wk HCG with 75-150iu FSH 3x/wk, all having very high success rates eventually. Still, I am more impressed with the guys who are on the forum who remained on 100-200mg/wk of T, ran the high dose FCH with HCG and still had the same results. Granted they need to remain on the FSH/HCG at a low dose for as long as they take an exogenous T, but this seems to me to be a much better way to go.</p><p></p><p>If the testes are recovered, and E2 is controlled, then the Enclomiphene alone would hypothetically do what I want. Unfortunately, while theres alot of studies on its ability to increase TT and sperm parameters, I have seen that most people just don't feel the boost in well being that they do on exogenous test. SERMS in general just are not pleasant, even when you eliminate the estrogenic isomer, and had I seen the number of success stories on here before I approached Defy, thats the route I would have asked Dr. Saya about. I wasn't aware that the same results could be achieved while on T long term. Logically it does make sense though. If you can afford enough HCG/FSH, then they should work as intended on the testes regardless of the pituitary shutdown. At 40 years old and nearly 15 plus total years of use, theres no way Im ever gonna feel "great" again without some exogenous T, regardless of the levels being the same.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="zat954, post: 130512, member: 36336"] Hey Vince, I pulled everything Defy needed, including lipids, hormones, full CBC etc. I knew theres a high possibility for estrogen conversion, especially at that dose. The Enclomiphene is only one isomer in Clomid, which demonstrates complete antagonism of the E receptors. Even at only 25mg ED, my [U]Estradiol is only 10![/U] If I keep on the monotherapy I definitely either need to cut it in half, or switch over to the Adex Dr. Saya gave me just in case I needed it. It definitely works, and in my discussion with the doc he actually prefers it to Clomid for the antiestrogenic activity. I have a good research chem brand, which is apparently TOO effective if its bottoming out my E and had my FSH at 4.5 at this dose after only 90 days. At this point I think the Leydig cells have been shocked into action, and the HCG can come down. Im starting to feel that less is more in most situations. Nelson put up some good info on 500iu EOD being ideal, but thats with coadministration of test, so Im not sure what to do here. As for spermatogenesis, most of the other long term cases I have read say I need to do the same thing I did with the HCG with the FSH: Blast it to super-physiological levels that will promote accelerated recovery, then lower it to maintenance. One study I found on a 37yo career bodybuilder showed that [I]90 days of high dose HCG (@30,000iu/wk!!!) and 75iu/day FSH fully and permanently restored his azoospermia, reversed his low T (he started at only 7ng/dl), and low gonadotropins; 3 months following the termination of the study, semen parameters remained above normal level, morphology/motility improved to 100%, and the couple conceived at 7 months after the study[/I]. Interestingly they dont mention using any estrogen blocker in the study, which seems pertinent at 30K units a week of HCG, but the outcome is impressive. Most other studies use 1500-5000iu 2-3x/wk HCG with 75-150iu FSH 3x/wk, all having very high success rates eventually. Still, I am more impressed with the guys who are on the forum who remained on 100-200mg/wk of T, ran the high dose FCH with HCG and still had the same results. Granted they need to remain on the FSH/HCG at a low dose for as long as they take an exogenous T, but this seems to me to be a much better way to go. If the testes are recovered, and E2 is controlled, then the Enclomiphene alone would hypothetically do what I want. Unfortunately, while theres alot of studies on its ability to increase TT and sperm parameters, I have seen that most people just don't feel the boost in well being that they do on exogenous test. SERMS in general just are not pleasant, even when you eliminate the estrogenic isomer, and had I seen the number of success stories on here before I approached Defy, thats the route I would have asked Dr. Saya about. I wasn't aware that the same results could be achieved while on T long term. Logically it does make sense though. If you can afford enough HCG/FSH, then they should work as intended on the testes regardless of the pituitary shutdown. At 40 years old and nearly 15 plus total years of use, theres no way Im ever gonna feel "great" again without some exogenous T, regardless of the levels being the same. [/QUOTE]
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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Testosterone Side Effect Management
Yet another fertility, ancillary case following long term TRT
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