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Clinical Use of Anabolics and Hormones
Clinical Use of Anabolics and Hormones
TRT to Supraphysiological Levels for Body Building
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<blockquote data-quote="tareload" data-source="post: 216602"><p>Ok, update to <a href="https://www.excelmale.com/forum/threads/trt-to-supraphysiological-levels-for-body-building.24696/post-216557" target="_blank">post #93 above</a>.</p><p></p><p>I took all the rodent studies with testosterone and combined with the PK modeling of this <a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29436172/" target="_blank">paper</a>. Doing so allows me to take the calculated weekly mean HEDs in post 93 (graph reproduced below)</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]19482[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>and convert to an estimated serum TT level (I calculated 2.5th percentile, 50th percentile, and 97.5th percentile based on this<a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29436172/#&gid=article-figures&pid=figure-2-uid-1" target="_blank"> figure</a>) using the intensive sampling data for mg/week dosing vs serum TT levels:</p><p></p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]19477[/ATTACH]</p><p>Simple linear regression of the intensive sample data above (quick estimate eyeballing the graphs - can refine later):</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]19479[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p></p><p>After the conversion, now I can plot mean human serum TT level (average over 7 day period) vs duration for the rodent toxicity studies and then fit the regression lines using percentiles mentioned above (see below):</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]19478[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>The area between the dashed lines represents the toxicity envelope predicted from the rodent studies I've looked at thus far. Obviously a work in progress. <em>The data labels are y-values (duration in years) for the data points.</em> <em>Also plotted are the human data from the HIV studies we discussed above (I only used the 50th percentile regression line to convert these data from mg/week to ng/dl). Ideally, I should plot a density ellipse or set of lines for the 2.5th / 97.5th percentile as well like I did for the rodent data conversions. </em></p><p></p><p>EDIT: Included the density ellipse with 2.5/97.5th percentile estimates on serum TT for the human HIV studies as well:</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]19485[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p></p><p>The log-log plot really shows how short term those studies were in comparison to the region where the empirical HED transform model suggests a human male would start running in trouble. <strong>Also, note the two yellow shaded data points which are entirely made up by me to simulate the point that chronic use of "physiologic" TRT is relatively non-toxic.</strong> Even if we omit those points there's still quite a bit of real estate between the blue HED transform data and the red Human HIV study data.</p><p></p><p>You can pick a serum TT level on the x-axis and then find the upper and lower limits on the y-axis that correspond to the toxicity curves. Try it out for serum TT levels of 1000, 2000, and 5000 ng/dl? What range of durations do you find? You could compare those numbers against anecdotal data from the bodybuilding world, your own personal experience, etc.</p><p></p><p>[USER=18514]@DS3[/USER], [USER=38109]@Cataceous[/USER] , [USER=13851]@madman[/USER] , [USER=3]@Nelson Vergel[/USER] , [USER=12687]@Dr Justin Saya MD[/USER], [USER=39921]@bixt[/USER], [USER=39729]@Wilson7[/USER], all others: would value your thoughts, critique, review. Propagating all the error involved in this analysis I would easily hand-wave the treatment as-is possesses much greater than +100/-50% error. Nevertheless, an interesting qualitative if not quantitative picture emerges. Perhaps this type of graph is already somewhere in the literature? Please share if so as I didn't mean to reinvent the wheel.</p><p></p><p>EDIT:</p><p>Added in an additional handful of influential studies in human males by Bhasin 1996 and 2001, Matsumoto 1988:</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]19487[/ATTACH]</p><p>I'll try to find any other longer term rodent studies but as of now we've still got the unknown region between the rodent HED transform data and the human data. Also, I didn't see any echos or other heart surveillance in the green data.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tareload, post: 216602"] Ok, update to [URL='https://www.excelmale.com/forum/threads/trt-to-supraphysiological-levels-for-body-building.24696/post-216557']post #93 above[/URL]. I took all the rodent studies with testosterone and combined with the PK modeling of this [URL='https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29436172/']paper[/URL]. Doing so allows me to take the calculated weekly mean HEDs in post 93 (graph reproduced below) [ATTACH type="full" alt="1643736958673.png"]19482[/ATTACH] and convert to an estimated serum TT level (I calculated 2.5th percentile, 50th percentile, and 97.5th percentile based on this[URL='https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29436172/#&gid=article-figures&pid=figure-2-uid-1'] figure[/URL]) using the intensive sampling data for mg/week dosing vs serum TT levels: [ATTACH type="full" alt="1643730018763.png"]19477[/ATTACH] Simple linear regression of the intensive sample data above (quick estimate eyeballing the graphs - can refine later): [ATTACH type="full" alt="1643731106700.png"]19479[/ATTACH] After the conversion, now I can plot mean human serum TT level (average over 7 day period) vs duration for the rodent toxicity studies and then fit the regression lines using percentiles mentioned above (see below): [ATTACH type="full" alt="1643730060220.png"]19478[/ATTACH] The area between the dashed lines represents the toxicity envelope predicted from the rodent studies I've looked at thus far. Obviously a work in progress. [I]The data labels are y-values (duration in years) for the data points.[/I] [I]Also plotted are the human data from the HIV studies we discussed above (I only used the 50th percentile regression line to convert these data from mg/week to ng/dl). Ideally, I should plot a density ellipse or set of lines for the 2.5th / 97.5th percentile as well like I did for the rodent data conversions. [/I] EDIT: Included the density ellipse with 2.5/97.5th percentile estimates on serum TT for the human HIV studies as well: [ATTACH type="full" alt="1643738529450.png"]19485[/ATTACH] The log-log plot really shows how short term those studies were in comparison to the region where the empirical HED transform model suggests a human male would start running in trouble. [B]Also, note the two yellow shaded data points which are entirely made up by me to simulate the point that chronic use of "physiologic" TRT is relatively non-toxic.[/B] Even if we omit those points there's still quite a bit of real estate between the blue HED transform data and the red Human HIV study data. You can pick a serum TT level on the x-axis and then find the upper and lower limits on the y-axis that correspond to the toxicity curves. Try it out for serum TT levels of 1000, 2000, and 5000 ng/dl? What range of durations do you find? You could compare those numbers against anecdotal data from the bodybuilding world, your own personal experience, etc. [USER=18514]@DS3[/USER], [USER=38109]@Cataceous[/USER] , [USER=13851]@madman[/USER] , [USER=3]@Nelson Vergel[/USER] , [USER=12687]@Dr Justin Saya MD[/USER], [USER=39921]@bixt[/USER], [USER=39729]@Wilson7[/USER], all others: would value your thoughts, critique, review. Propagating all the error involved in this analysis I would easily hand-wave the treatment as-is possesses much greater than +100/-50% error. Nevertheless, an interesting qualitative if not quantitative picture emerges. Perhaps this type of graph is already somewhere in the literature? Please share if so as I didn't mean to reinvent the wheel. EDIT: Added in an additional handful of influential studies in human males by Bhasin 1996 and 2001, Matsumoto 1988: [ATTACH type="full" alt="1643741666674.png"]19487[/ATTACH] I'll try to find any other longer term rodent studies but as of now we've still got the unknown region between the rodent HED transform data and the human data. Also, I didn't see any echos or other heart surveillance in the green data. [/QUOTE]
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Clinical Use of Anabolics and Hormones
Clinical Use of Anabolics and Hormones
TRT to Supraphysiological Levels for Body Building
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