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The Health Optimization Doctors RoundTable: High Hematocrit Not Important?
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<blockquote data-quote="RobRoy" data-source="post: 256667" data-attributes="member: 42893"><p>As I always say read a lot understand little. That's our name for you inside our circles. The woke TRT movement is in full affect with you read a lot. I guess you missed the part where we talk about the beneficial effects that testosterone has on the vasculature. You can't use baseline studies on him adequate and apply that to men on testosterone. You can't apply laboratory studies two men on testosterone. None of the causes of secondary erythrocytosis have an increase risk of heart attack strokes or blood clots and that includes living at high altitude, COPD, and sleep apnea for instance. Testosterone has also never been shown to increase a man's risk of heart attack strokes or blood clots despite an increase in hematocrit being the most common side effect from testosterone. Testosterone has multiple beneficial effects on vascular reactivity. You should've been at the Androgen Society meeting this year where it was discussed in detail and stated out loud that the increase in hematocrit does not cause harm. Just ask Nelson he was there. So now you're gonna have to include Abraham Morgenthaler as a target in your woke TRT movement. Yes Abraham Morgenthaler stated it out loud that the increase in hematocrit has never been shown to cause harm and that the hematocrit cut off is an arbitrary number not based on data. I actually have his exact words taped. Multiple leaders in the industry were also there and felt the same way.</p><p>But the best way to prove your hypothesis that the increase in Hct on testosterone could cause harm is to actually give testosterone to men raise their hematocrit and see if it causes harm. Oh wait a minute that's been done for 85 years and guess what it's never caused harm. It's been abused for decades by men and yet has never caused harm. The first couple of decades that mean we're given testosterone there were no lab test so they were given how doses of testosterone or what you would consider high-dose which would be 200 mg and guess what no harm was done despite them having an increase Hct. I guess you also think testosterone causes prostate cancer or worsens it as well don't you?</p><p>You may can talk around the uninformed on a forum but it's obvious you have absolutely zero clinical experience but you want to attack those that have literally decades of clinical experience and understand the actual literature.</p><p>I've asked you over and over and over again I'm gonna ask you one last time. Provide one single study where testosterone caused an increase in heart attack strokes or blood clots. Provide any study that you would like that raising the hematocrit with testosterone caused harm. </p><p>I guess you're also gonna tell us that if you live at altitude you are also an increased risk due to the high hematocrit that you get. Are you gonna tell us that too or you just want to continue your woke TRT movement? </p><p></p><p>Abraham Morgenthaler the father of testosterone therapy and prostate cancer disagrees with you read a lot.</p><p></p><p>" In experimental studies using rigid glass viscometers or cone-plate viscometers there is a logarithmic increase in viscosity with increasing hematocrit. It is inappropriate to correlate these in vitro viscosity readings to what occurs to flowing blood through tiny distensible vessels in vivo. In other words, viscometer measures in these experiments do not translate to human blood vessels. Firstly, the flow through these narrow blood vessels is rapid (high shear rate), which in a non-Newtonian fluid such as blood causes a marked decrease in viscosity. Second, blood flowing through these narrow channels is axial with a central core of packed red blood cells sliding over a peripheral layer of lubricating low viscosity plasma. With a secondary erythrocytosis there is an increase in blood volume which enlarges the vascular bed, decreases peripheral resistance and increases cardiac output. Therefore, in a secondary erythrocytosis optimal oxygen transport with increased blood volume occurs at a higher hematocrit value than with a normal blood volume. A moderate increase in hematocrit may be beneficial despite the increased viscosity" (this is straight from Williams hematology which you conveniently left out)</p><p></p><p>Testosterone also exerts multiple beneficial effects on the vasculature and its components which may protect against thrombosis. In other words testosterone has positive effects on vascular reactivity.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Testosterone is a vasodilator and increases nitric oxide</p><p></p><p></p><p>T decreases plasma concentrations of pro coagulatory substances</p><p></p><p></p><p>T improves erythrocyte membrane lipid composition and fluidity</p><p></p><p></p><p>T increases red blood cell deformability</p><p></p><p></p><p>T reduces levels of lipoprotein a </p><p></p><p>The brightest researchers in the world including Abraham Morgenthaler disagree with you read a lot. It gets so tiring asking you to provide an actual study showing any harm in men using testosterone or raising Hct with testosterone. I guess you also missed the part of the video where the upper limit of hematocrit is an arbitrary number. It's not based on any data that shows harm when you go above it. It's just an arbitrary number. Dr. Morgenthaler pointed this out very clearly at the androgen society meeting and Glenn Cunningham who wrote the guidelines for testosterone therapy for the endocrine Society stated they only picked 54% because they had to pick a number and it seemed like a good number but there wasn't any data that factored into the decision. Once again let's quote Dr. Neal Rouzier "in medicine if we say that it might it means that it doesn't because if it did we would say that it does. Testosterone has been used for almost 100 years and it has not caused harm... but read a lot thinks that it can. I'll ask you a different question, are you also afraid of the dark?</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]33604[/ATTACH][ATTACH=full]33605[/ATTACH]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="RobRoy, post: 256667, member: 42893"] As I always say read a lot understand little. That's our name for you inside our circles. The woke TRT movement is in full affect with you read a lot. I guess you missed the part where we talk about the beneficial effects that testosterone has on the vasculature. You can't use baseline studies on him adequate and apply that to men on testosterone. You can't apply laboratory studies two men on testosterone. None of the causes of secondary erythrocytosis have an increase risk of heart attack strokes or blood clots and that includes living at high altitude, COPD, and sleep apnea for instance. Testosterone has also never been shown to increase a man's risk of heart attack strokes or blood clots despite an increase in hematocrit being the most common side effect from testosterone. Testosterone has multiple beneficial effects on vascular reactivity. You should've been at the Androgen Society meeting this year where it was discussed in detail and stated out loud that the increase in hematocrit does not cause harm. Just ask Nelson he was there. So now you're gonna have to include Abraham Morgenthaler as a target in your woke TRT movement. Yes Abraham Morgenthaler stated it out loud that the increase in hematocrit has never been shown to cause harm and that the hematocrit cut off is an arbitrary number not based on data. I actually have his exact words taped. Multiple leaders in the industry were also there and felt the same way. But the best way to prove your hypothesis that the increase in Hct on testosterone could cause harm is to actually give testosterone to men raise their hematocrit and see if it causes harm. Oh wait a minute that's been done for 85 years and guess what it's never caused harm. It's been abused for decades by men and yet has never caused harm. The first couple of decades that mean we're given testosterone there were no lab test so they were given how doses of testosterone or what you would consider high-dose which would be 200 mg and guess what no harm was done despite them having an increase Hct. I guess you also think testosterone causes prostate cancer or worsens it as well don't you? You may can talk around the uninformed on a forum but it's obvious you have absolutely zero clinical experience but you want to attack those that have literally decades of clinical experience and understand the actual literature. I've asked you over and over and over again I'm gonna ask you one last time. Provide one single study where testosterone caused an increase in heart attack strokes or blood clots. Provide any study that you would like that raising the hematocrit with testosterone caused harm. I guess you're also gonna tell us that if you live at altitude you are also an increased risk due to the high hematocrit that you get. Are you gonna tell us that too or you just want to continue your woke TRT movement? Abraham Morgenthaler the father of testosterone therapy and prostate cancer disagrees with you read a lot. " In experimental studies using rigid glass viscometers or cone-plate viscometers there is a logarithmic increase in viscosity with increasing hematocrit. It is inappropriate to correlate these in vitro viscosity readings to what occurs to flowing blood through tiny distensible vessels in vivo. In other words, viscometer measures in these experiments do not translate to human blood vessels. Firstly, the flow through these narrow blood vessels is rapid (high shear rate), which in a non-Newtonian fluid such as blood causes a marked decrease in viscosity. Second, blood flowing through these narrow channels is axial with a central core of packed red blood cells sliding over a peripheral layer of lubricating low viscosity plasma. With a secondary erythrocytosis there is an increase in blood volume which enlarges the vascular bed, decreases peripheral resistance and increases cardiac output. Therefore, in a secondary erythrocytosis optimal oxygen transport with increased blood volume occurs at a higher hematocrit value than with a normal blood volume. A moderate increase in hematocrit may be beneficial despite the increased viscosity" (this is straight from Williams hematology which you conveniently left out) Testosterone also exerts multiple beneficial effects on the vasculature and its components which may protect against thrombosis. In other words testosterone has positive effects on vascular reactivity. Testosterone is a vasodilator and increases nitric oxide T decreases plasma concentrations of pro coagulatory substances T improves erythrocyte membrane lipid composition and fluidity T increases red blood cell deformability T reduces levels of lipoprotein a The brightest researchers in the world including Abraham Morgenthaler disagree with you read a lot. It gets so tiring asking you to provide an actual study showing any harm in men using testosterone or raising Hct with testosterone. I guess you also missed the part of the video where the upper limit of hematocrit is an arbitrary number. It's not based on any data that shows harm when you go above it. It's just an arbitrary number. Dr. Morgenthaler pointed this out very clearly at the androgen society meeting and Glenn Cunningham who wrote the guidelines for testosterone therapy for the endocrine Society stated they only picked 54% because they had to pick a number and it seemed like a good number but there wasn't any data that factored into the decision. Once again let's quote Dr. Neal Rouzier "in medicine if we say that it might it means that it doesn't because if it did we would say that it does. Testosterone has been used for almost 100 years and it has not caused harm... but read a lot thinks that it can. I'll ask you a different question, are you also afraid of the dark? [ATTACH type="full"]33604[/ATTACH][ATTACH type="full"]33605[/ATTACH] [/QUOTE]
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The Health Optimization Doctors RoundTable: High Hematocrit Not Important?
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