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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Testosterone Basics & Questions
Switching From Cream to Injectable T (subQ)
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<blockquote data-quote="madman" data-source="post: 150708" data-attributes="member: 13851"><p>What is of critical importance here is that you are using Danazol to lower your SHBG......there is absolutely no need for extremely high androgen levels 1500+ ng/dL......let alone 2000-3000 ng/dL (ridiculous) not only for one with an SHBG level of 72 nmol/L but it would be a ridiculous level of TT/FT for one with an SHBG of not only 80+ nmol/L but even the absurdly high 200 nmol/L!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Lets take your TT 2889 ng/dL, for shits sake an absurdly high SHBG of 200 nmol/L and Albumin 4.3 g/dL than your FT still insanely high at 84.19 ng/dL (extremely high above the reference range 16-31 ng/dL)</p><p>[ATTACH=full]7586[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p></p><p>Again most men do well having FT levels in the 25-30 ng/dL range and yes some need to run levels in the 30-50 ng/dL range but not everyone would need to run these levels let alone some could not tolerate very high FT levels.</p><p></p><p>The <strong>TT levels </strong>you are running <strong>2889 ng/dL </strong>even with an <strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">SHBG of 72 nmol/L </span>(recent level)</strong> have your <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)"><strong>FT levels</strong></span><strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)"> extremely high 103.27 ng/dL</span></strong> </p><p>[ATTACH=full]7597[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Even with your previous <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)"><strong>SHBG level of 180 nmol/L</strong></span> running the same <strong>TT 2889 ng/dL </strong>would still have your <strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">FT levels absurdly high 87.02 ng/dL.</span></strong></p><p>[ATTACH=full]7598[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>When on trt most depending on ones <strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">SHBG </span>whether (low/high) </strong>have most men running <strong><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">TT levels 800-1200 ng/dL</span></strong> <strong>(mind you some men are hitting 1200-1500 ng/dL levels)</strong> <span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><strong>which would result in FT levels in the 30-50 ng/dL range.</strong></span></p><p></p><p>No one on trt would need FT levels 60+ ng/dL for a protocol to be effective.</p><p></p><p>Running <strong>TT levels 2500-3000+ ng/dL</strong> are steroid levels which would result in <strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">FT levels 80-100+ ng/dL.</span></strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As I stated if anything with an <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)"><strong>SHBG of 72 nmol/L </strong></span>you could get away with running a <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><strong>TT of 1000 ng/dL </strong></span>and your <strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">FT would be 31.07 ng/dL</span> (<span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">top end of the reference range 16-31 ng/dL</span>)</strong></p><p>[ATTACH=full]7599[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If your goal is to have <strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">FT levels in the 40 ng/dL range</span></strong> than with an <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)"><strong>SHBG of 72 nmol/L </strong></span>you would only need to run a <strong><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">TT level of 1250 ng/dL</span></strong> and your <strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">FT would be 40.51 ng/dL</span> (<span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">over the top end of the reference range 16-31 ng/dl</span>)</strong></p><p>[ATTACH=full]7585[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">lower my dosage from 200mg/week to 180/week</span></strong></p><p></p><p>- smart move but you may very well need to lower dose further depending on what TT/FT levels you hit on such dose and whether SHBG levels decrease further or stay the same.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">He wasn’t <em>overly</em> concerned about the high numbers</span></strong>. <strong>Right now, my <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">Free T is 54.3 (</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">using the decimal-point conversion system</span><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">)</span>, and we are hoping to see it around <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">40 </span>next time around.</strong></p><p></p><p>-short term there will be no major issues but again he should be concerned that your TT/FT levels are absurdly high (definitely not trt levels) and as far as "<strong>Right now, my <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">Free T is 54.3 (</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">using the decimal-point conversion system</span><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">)</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">"</span></strong><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">.....this is the wrong approach as it is not giving you a true picture of where your FT levels truly sit and the only way you would know is by either having FT tested using the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis or the Ultrafiltration method or simply using the newer calculated method </span><span style="font-size: 18px"><strong><a href="https://tru-t.org/" target="_blank">TruT Free Testosterone Calculator by FPT</a></strong>.....</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">unfortunately your FT levels are absurdly high </span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><strong>103.27 ng/dL </strong></span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><strong>(</strong></span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><strong>double</strong></span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><strong>)</strong> of what he states......hence your piss poor treatment.</span></p><p></p><p>-this is why it is critical to use the proper testing method for free testosterone as it is critical to truly know where ones levels sit on such protocol</p><p></p><p><strong>The <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">TruT™</span> <span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">algorithm improves the accuracy of free-T calculations</span>,<span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)"> reducing the potential for misdiagnosis</span>, and <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">better informing providers</span> when <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">designing treatments.</span></strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>My goal is to get <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">SHBG under 50 </span>(was <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">72 on these recent bloods</span> after starting at <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">180 at the beginning of HOT</span>)</strong>.</p><p></p><p>- even if your SHBG never budged and stayed around 72 nmol/L as I stated before hitting a TT of 1000 ng/dL would put your FT level at 31.07 ng/dL (top end of the reference range 16-31 ng/dL) and if you ran a TT of 1250 ng/dL it would put your FT levels at 40.51 ng/dL (over the top end of the reference range 16-31 ng/dL).....so regardless your FT levels would be the same as one with an SHBG of 50 nmol/L running a TT of 935/1180 ng/dL</p><p></p><p>- as you can clearly see <strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">using the newer calculated method</span> </strong>even when taking one with high SHBG levels whether 50 nmol/L or 72 nmol/L (22 nmol/L difference) one would not need to run a drastic difference in TT levels (TT 1250/1000, SHBG 72 vs TT 1180/935 SHBG 50) would result in similar FT levels due to<span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"> <strong>the complex, non-linear allostery in SHBG's association with testosterone</strong></span></p><p></p><p>- * this is key</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>The <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">TruT™</span> calculator provides the ideal solution by</strong> <strong>using measurements of <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">total testosterone, SHBG, and albumin </span>to <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">calculate free testosterone</span> while taking into account <span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">the complex, non-linear allostery in SHBG's association with testosterone.</span> <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">TruT™ is the only calculator available that uses this more complex formulation. </span></strong><a href="https://tru-t.org/evidence#trut-improvements" target="_blank">References</a></li> </ul><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Improved <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">TruT™ </span>Companion Diagnostics</strong></p><p></p><p><strong>Based on the fundamental discovery of <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">testosterone partitioning</span>, our team has developed<span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)"> an accurate free testosterone determination method.</span></strong> <strong>While examining the mechanistic origin of this systematic inaccuracy in free testosterone values using the linear model of SHBG:testosterone association,</strong><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)"><strong> we discovered that the SHBG dimer exhibits conformational allostery in binding testosterone. </strong></span><strong>Our <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">TruT™ </span>companion diagnostic, <span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">incorporating the correct parameters and non-linear dynamics in T:SHBG association</span> has resulted in a framework <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">for accurate determination of free testosterone values.</span></strong></p><p><strong>The <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">TruT™</span> <span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">algorithm improves the accuracy of free-T calculations</span>, <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">reducing the potential for misdiagnosis</span>, and <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">better informing providers</span> when <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">designing treatments.</span></strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>People thinking that one with high SHBG needs to run extremely high supra-physiologicals TT levels to overcome SHBG are sorely misunderstood!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">Once we get SHBG sufficiently low — which will allow me to have a more moderate T level — we will lay off the Danazol for a while</span></strong>,</p><p></p><p>- again even with your SHBG levels at 72 nmol/L you would not need to run an extremely high TT level to achieve a healthy FT level</p><p></p><p>- TT of 1250-1000 ng/dL would have your FT levels in the 30-40 ng/dL range</p><p></p><p>- even if you drive your SHBG down to 50 nmol/L running a TT of 1180/935 would result in a FT level in the 30-40 ng/dL range</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">bodybuilders</span></strong></p><p></p><p>- definitely sounds as if your doctor treats a lot of bodybuilders as your TT levels are ridiculous for one running trt even with having high SHBG</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)"> he didn’t think I necessarily <em>needed</em> more bloodwork now (as opposed to in 6 weeks), but I asked for it.</span></strong></p><p></p><p>-if you have already been on your protocol for 6-8 weeks than at the very least one should have TT (LC/MS-MS)/FT (Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration or the newer calculated method TruT Free Testosterone Calculator), e2 (LC/MS-MS), Chemistry panel and CBC done.</p><p></p><p>- Chemistry panel will include lipids as high levels of T can lower ones HDL and CBC will include hemoglobin/hematocrit/RBC's which are critical to keep an eye on when using testosterone</p><p></p><p>- an increase in T will result in an increase in hemoglobin/hematocrit/RBCs</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">wasn’t super concerned about HCT because my level has been quite stable throughout treatment on the four tests I’ve had (45, 46.6, 44, 45.7). But it will be interesting to see how much it has jumped up, given the rise in Free T</span></strong></p><p></p><p>- you are using injections now and not only are your TT levels extremely high (well into the supra-physiological range) but more importantly your FT levels are way too f***ing high.....most likely your hemo/hemato/RBCs have increased</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="madman, post: 150708, member: 13851"] What is of critical importance here is that you are using Danazol to lower your SHBG......there is absolutely no need for extremely high androgen levels 1500+ ng/dL......let alone 2000-3000 ng/dL (ridiculous) not only for one with an SHBG level of 72 nmol/L but it would be a ridiculous level of TT/FT for one with an SHBG of not only 80+ nmol/L but even the absurdly high 200 nmol/L! Lets take your TT 2889 ng/dL, for shits sake an absurdly high SHBG of 200 nmol/L and Albumin 4.3 g/dL than your FT still insanely high at 84.19 ng/dL (extremely high above the reference range 16-31 ng/dL) [ATTACH=full]7586[/ATTACH] Again most men do well having FT levels in the 25-30 ng/dL range and yes some need to run levels in the 30-50 ng/dL range but not everyone would need to run these levels let alone some could not tolerate very high FT levels. The [B]TT levels [/B]you are running [B]2889 ng/dL [/B]even with an [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]SHBG of 72 nmol/L [/COLOR](recent level)[/B] have your [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)][B]FT levels[/B][/COLOR][B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)] extremely high 103.27 ng/dL[/COLOR][/B] [ATTACH=full]7597[/ATTACH] Even with your previous [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)][B]SHBG level of 180 nmol/L[/B][/COLOR] running the same [B]TT 2889 ng/dL [/B]would still have your [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]FT levels absurdly high 87.02 ng/dL.[/COLOR][/B] [ATTACH=full]7598[/ATTACH] When on trt most depending on ones [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]SHBG [/COLOR]whether (low/high) [/B]have most men running [B][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]TT levels 800-1200 ng/dL[/COLOR][/B] [B](mind you some men are hitting 1200-1500 ng/dL levels)[/B] [COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][B]which would result in FT levels in the 30-50 ng/dL range.[/B][/COLOR] No one on trt would need FT levels 60+ ng/dL for a protocol to be effective. Running [B]TT levels 2500-3000+ ng/dL[/B] are steroid levels which would result in [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]FT levels 80-100+ ng/dL.[/COLOR][/B] As I stated if anything with an [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)][B]SHBG of 72 nmol/L [/B][/COLOR]you could get away with running a [COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][B]TT of 1000 ng/dL [/B][/COLOR]and your [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]FT would be 31.07 ng/dL[/COLOR] ([COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]top end of the reference range 16-31 ng/dL[/COLOR])[/B] [ATTACH=full]7599[/ATTACH] If your goal is to have [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]FT levels in the 40 ng/dL range[/COLOR][/B] than with an [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)][B]SHBG of 72 nmol/L [/B][/COLOR]you would only need to run a [B][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]TT level of 1250 ng/dL[/COLOR][/B] and your [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]FT would be 40.51 ng/dL[/COLOR] ([COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]over the top end of the reference range 16-31 ng/dl[/COLOR])[/B] [ATTACH=full]7585[/ATTACH] [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]lower my dosage from 200mg/week to 180/week[/COLOR][/B] - smart move but you may very well need to lower dose further depending on what TT/FT levels you hit on such dose and whether SHBG levels decrease further or stay the same. [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]He wasn’t [I]overly[/I] concerned about the high numbers[/COLOR][/B]. [B]Right now, my [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]Free T is 54.3 ([/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]using the decimal-point conversion system[/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)])[/COLOR], and we are hoping to see it around [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]40 [/COLOR]next time around.[/B] -short term there will be no major issues but again he should be concerned that your TT/FT levels are absurdly high (definitely not trt levels) and as far as "[B]Right now, my [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]Free T is 54.3 ([/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]using the decimal-point conversion system[/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)])[/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]"[/COLOR][/B][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)].....this is the wrong approach as it is not giving you a true picture of where your FT levels truly sit and the only way you would know is by either having FT tested using the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis or the Ultrafiltration method or simply using the newer calculated method [/COLOR][SIZE=18px][B][URL='https://tru-t.org/']TruT Free Testosterone Calculator by FPT[/URL][/B].....[/SIZE][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]unfortunately your FT levels are absurdly high [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][B]103.27 ng/dL [/B][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][B]([/B][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][B]double[/B][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][B])[/B] of what he states......hence your piss poor treatment.[/COLOR] -this is why it is critical to use the proper testing method for free testosterone as it is critical to truly know where ones levels sit on such protocol [B]The [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]TruT™[/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]algorithm improves the accuracy of free-T calculations[/COLOR],[COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)] reducing the potential for misdiagnosis[/COLOR], and [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]better informing providers[/COLOR] when [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]designing treatments.[/COLOR][/B] [B]My goal is to get [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]SHBG under 50 [/COLOR](was [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]72 on these recent bloods[/COLOR] after starting at [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]180 at the beginning of HOT[/COLOR])[/B]. - even if your SHBG never budged and stayed around 72 nmol/L as I stated before hitting a TT of 1000 ng/dL would put your FT level at 31.07 ng/dL (top end of the reference range 16-31 ng/dL) and if you ran a TT of 1250 ng/dL it would put your FT levels at 40.51 ng/dL (over the top end of the reference range 16-31 ng/dL).....so regardless your FT levels would be the same as one with an SHBG of 50 nmol/L running a TT of 935/1180 ng/dL - as you can clearly see [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]using the newer calculated method[/COLOR] [/B]even when taking one with high SHBG levels whether 50 nmol/L or 72 nmol/L (22 nmol/L difference) one would not need to run a drastic difference in TT levels (TT 1250/1000, SHBG 72 vs TT 1180/935 SHBG 50) would result in similar FT levels due to[COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)] [B]the complex, non-linear allostery in SHBG's association with testosterone[/B][/COLOR] - * this is key [LIST] [*][B]The [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]TruT™[/COLOR] calculator provides the ideal solution by[/B] [B]using measurements of [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]total testosterone, SHBG, and albumin [/COLOR]to [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]calculate free testosterone[/COLOR] while taking into account [COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]the complex, non-linear allostery in SHBG's association with testosterone.[/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]TruT™ is the only calculator available that uses this more complex formulation. [/COLOR][/B][URL='https://tru-t.org/evidence#trut-improvements']References[/URL] [/LIST] [B]Improved [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]TruT™ [/COLOR]Companion Diagnostics[/B] [B]Based on the fundamental discovery of [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]testosterone partitioning[/COLOR], our team has developed[COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)] an accurate free testosterone determination method.[/COLOR][/B] [B]While examining the mechanistic origin of this systematic inaccuracy in free testosterone values using the linear model of SHBG:testosterone association,[/B][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)][B] we discovered that the SHBG dimer exhibits conformational allostery in binding testosterone. [/B][/COLOR][B]Our [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]TruT™ [/COLOR]companion diagnostic, [COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]incorporating the correct parameters and non-linear dynamics in T:SHBG association[/COLOR] has resulted in a framework [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]for accurate determination of free testosterone values.[/COLOR] The [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]TruT™[/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]algorithm improves the accuracy of free-T calculations[/COLOR], [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]reducing the potential for misdiagnosis[/COLOR], and [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]better informing providers[/COLOR] when [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]designing treatments.[/COLOR][/B] People thinking that one with high SHBG needs to run extremely high supra-physiologicals TT levels to overcome SHBG are sorely misunderstood! [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]Once we get SHBG sufficiently low — which will allow me to have a more moderate T level — we will lay off the Danazol for a while[/COLOR][/B], - again even with your SHBG levels at 72 nmol/L you would not need to run an extremely high TT level to achieve a healthy FT level - TT of 1250-1000 ng/dL would have your FT levels in the 30-40 ng/dL range - even if you drive your SHBG down to 50 nmol/L running a TT of 1180/935 would result in a FT level in the 30-40 ng/dL range [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]bodybuilders[/COLOR][/B] - definitely sounds as if your doctor treats a lot of bodybuilders as your TT levels are ridiculous for one running trt even with having high SHBG [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)] he didn’t think I necessarily [I]needed[/I] more bloodwork now (as opposed to in 6 weeks), but I asked for it.[/COLOR][/B] -if you have already been on your protocol for 6-8 weeks than at the very least one should have TT (LC/MS-MS)/FT (Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration or the newer calculated method TruT Free Testosterone Calculator), e2 (LC/MS-MS), Chemistry panel and CBC done. - Chemistry panel will include lipids as high levels of T can lower ones HDL and CBC will include hemoglobin/hematocrit/RBC's which are critical to keep an eye on when using testosterone - an increase in T will result in an increase in hemoglobin/hematocrit/RBCs [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]wasn’t super concerned about HCT because my level has been quite stable throughout treatment on the four tests I’ve had (45, 46.6, 44, 45.7). But it will be interesting to see how much it has jumped up, given the rise in Free T[/COLOR][/B] - you are using injections now and not only are your TT levels extremely high (well into the supra-physiological range) but more importantly your FT levels are way too f***ing high.....most likely your hemo/hemato/RBCs have increased [/QUOTE]
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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Testosterone Basics & Questions
Switching From Cream to Injectable T (subQ)
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