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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Testosterone Basics & Questions
Switching From Cream to Injectable T (subQ)
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<blockquote data-quote="madman" data-source="post: 150625" data-attributes="member: 13851"><p><strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">the numbers are quite high </span></strong>– <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)"><strong>but pushing them <em>even higher</em> may, I think, be necessary for me to continue improving.</strong></span></p><p></p><p>Are you kidding me here!</p><p></p><p>More like absurdly high and no way no how would you need to push your TT/FT levels any higher..... let alone run the TT/FT levels you are hitting and yes even with an SHBG of 72.</p><p></p><p>You are hitting 2000+ TT levels.....almost close to 3000 ng/dL.....these are levels one would attain on a low dose T cycle!</p><p></p><p>As I have stated many times before and I will say it again you are using the <strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">wrong testing method</span></strong> <strong><span style="color: rgb(26, 188, 156)">(direct immunoassay) </span></strong>for testing your FT.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">Current problems with accurate free testosterone determination</span></strong></p><p></p><p><strong>Current methods for measuring free testosterone (fT) are technically challenging and not accurate.</strong> <strong><span style="color: rgb(26, 188, 156)">The widely used direct immunoassay and tracer analog techniques for measuring fT have been shown to be inaccurate.</span></strong> <strong><span style="color: rgb(251, 160, 38)">Equilibrium dialysis, the reference method against which other methods are compared, is labor-intensive and cumbersome, and therefore has had limited clinical adoption.</span></strong> <strong>As an alternative, <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">free testosterone</span> can be computed from the <em>total </em>testosterone, <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">SHBG</span>, and <span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">albumin</span> concentrations. </strong>Recently, Endocrine Society’s Expert Panel acknowledged the experimental problems in fT measurements and concluded that "...the calculation of free testosterone is the most useful estimate of free testosterone in plasma..." <strong>However, we have demonstrated that <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">even the calculated fT values derived from the prevailing equations, based on linear law-of-mass action models or empiric equations, </span>differ systematically from<span style="color: rgb(251, 160, 38)"> free testosterone measured by equilibrium dialysis</span> <span style="color: rgb(26, 188, 156)">by as much as 40%.</span></strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Why <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">TruT™</span>?</strong></p><p><strong>The <em>only</em> FDA-registered free testosterone calculator</strong></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Improved <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">biophysical characterizations</span> have suggested <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">the importance of models that consider </span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">allosteric coupling of testosterone with dimeric SHBG.</span> This model, as implemented by<span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)"> TruT™ </span>provides <span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">the most accurate estimates for free testosterone.</span></strong></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong><span style="color: rgb(26, 188, 156)">Commonly available free testosterone calculators </span><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">(issam.ch, nebido.com, pctag.uk) </span><span style="color: rgb(26, 188, 156)">use models of testosterone:SHBG binding </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">(proposed by Vermeulen et al. and Sodergard et. al) </span><span style="color: rgb(26, 188, 156)">which were developed before the crystal structure for SHBG:T complexes were available. </span><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">These models assume that the two SHBG monomers behave identically in binding testosterone. Detailed experimental data show that the </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">"simplified linear model is erroneous."</span></strong> <a href="https://tru-t.org/evidence/#existing-calculators-are-inaccurate" target="_blank">References</a>.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Endocrine Society has issued position statements which highlights the laboratory- and operator-dependent variability inherent in direct free testosterone measurements. For this reason they advocate for indirect "calculator" based methods <a href="https://tru-t.org/evidence#endocrine-society-position" target="_blank">References</a>.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>The <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">TruT™ calculator</span> provides the ideal solution by <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">using measurements of </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">total testosterone</span><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">, SHBG, </span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">and</span> <span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">albumin </span>to <span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">calculate free testosterone</span> while taking into account <span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">the complex, non-linear allostery in SHBG's association with testosterone.</span><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)"> TruT™ is the only calculator available that uses this </span><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">more complex formulation.</span> </strong><a href="https://tru-t.org/evidence#trut-improvements" target="_blank">References</a></li> </ul><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Forget relying on the older <strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">calculated methods</span></strong> let alone <strong><span style="color: rgb(26, 188, 156)">direct immunoassay and tracer analog techniques.</span>....</strong>either pay to have the <strong><span style="color: rgb(251, 160, 38)">gold standard equilibrium dialysis</span></strong> or <strong><span style="color: rgb(250, 197, 28)">ultrafiltration</span></strong> or better yet do not spend the money and simply use the newer calculated method <strong><a href="https://tru-t.org/" target="_blank">TruT Free Testosterone Calculator by FPT</a></strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>People tend to go on and on and on about high SHBG resulting in low FT.....sure when TT levels are sub-par or low but when TT levels are high enough even with a higher SHBG one can still have healthy FT levels.</p><p></p><p>Even with an SHBG of 70,80,90,100 as long as TT is high enough one can have a healthy FT......but even then TT will not need to be as high as we used to think due to <strong><span style="color: rgb(44, 130, 201)">the complex, non-linear allostery in SHBG's association with testosterone.</span></strong></p><p></p><p>In your case although most would consider an SHBG of 72 nmol/L high seeing as your TT (trough) is absurdly high at 2889 ng/dL than your FT is 103.27 ng/dL (way too f***ing high) above the reference range of 16-31 ng/dL and keep in mind this is using the newer calculated method <strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">TruT™</span> which provides the most accurate estimates for free testosterone.</strong></p><p>[ATTACH=full]7575[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p></p><p>If anything with an SHBG of 72 nmol/L you could get away with running a TT of 1000 ng/dL and your FT would be 31.07 ng/dL (top end of the reference range 16-31 ng/dL)</p><p>[ATTACH=full]7583[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Most men do well with their FT in the 20-30 ng/dL range and others may need to venture into the 30-50 ng/dL range to see benefits.....but even than many would not need to run FT levels that high let alone be able to tolerate such high levels.</p><p></p><p>Sure everyone is different and you have to find a level that is best for you within reason and as long as blood markers are in a healthy range and any potential side effects are avoided/minimized.</p><p></p><p>Overall health is key!</p><p></p><p>Now to put this in better perspective with an SHBG of 72 nmol/L you would only need to run a TT of 1500 ng/dL which would put your FT levels at a whopping 50.02 ng/dL (well over the top end of the reference range 16-31 ng/dL.</p><p>[ATTACH=full]7576[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p></p><p>You are using Danazol to lower your SHBG so you should be able to use less T in order to achieve a healthy FT level.....we are not simply trying to hammer down your high SHBG with absurdly high androgen levels!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No way even with your SHBG levels does one need to be running an absurdly high TT of 2889 ng/dL.</p><p></p><p>You need to rethink this protocol through deeply!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="madman, post: 150625, member: 13851"] [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]the numbers are quite high [/COLOR][/B]– [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)][B]but pushing them [I]even higher[/I] may, I think, be necessary for me to continue improving.[/B][/COLOR] Are you kidding me here! More like absurdly high and no way no how would you need to push your TT/FT levels any higher..... let alone run the TT/FT levels you are hitting and yes even with an SHBG of 72. You are hitting 2000+ TT levels.....almost close to 3000 ng/dL.....these are levels one would attain on a low dose T cycle! As I have stated many times before and I will say it again you are using the [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]wrong testing method[/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=rgb(26, 188, 156)](direct immunoassay) [/COLOR][/B]for testing your FT. [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]Current problems with accurate free testosterone determination[/COLOR][/B] [B]Current methods for measuring free testosterone (fT) are technically challenging and not accurate.[/B] [B][COLOR=rgb(26, 188, 156)]The widely used direct immunoassay and tracer analog techniques for measuring fT have been shown to be inaccurate.[/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)]Equilibrium dialysis, the reference method against which other methods are compared, is labor-intensive and cumbersome, and therefore has had limited clinical adoption.[/COLOR][/B] [B]As an alternative, [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]free testosterone[/COLOR] can be computed from the [I]total [/I]testosterone, [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]SHBG[/COLOR], and [COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]albumin[/COLOR] concentrations. [/B]Recently, Endocrine Society’s Expert Panel acknowledged the experimental problems in fT measurements and concluded that "...the calculation of free testosterone is the most useful estimate of free testosterone in plasma..." [B]However, we have demonstrated that [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]even the calculated fT values derived from the prevailing equations, based on linear law-of-mass action models or empiric equations, [/COLOR]differ systematically from[COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)] free testosterone measured by equilibrium dialysis[/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(26, 188, 156)]by as much as 40%.[/COLOR][/B] [B]Why [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]TruT™[/COLOR]? The [I]only[/I] FDA-registered free testosterone calculator[/B] [LIST] [*][B]Improved [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]biophysical characterizations[/COLOR] have suggested [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]the importance of models that consider [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]allosteric coupling of testosterone with dimeric SHBG.[/COLOR] This model, as implemented by[COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)] TruT™ [/COLOR]provides [COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]the most accurate estimates for free testosterone.[/COLOR][/B] [*][B][COLOR=rgb(26, 188, 156)]Commonly available free testosterone calculators [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)](issam.ch, nebido.com, pctag.uk) [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(26, 188, 156)]use models of testosterone:SHBG binding [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)](proposed by Vermeulen et al. and Sodergard et. al) [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(26, 188, 156)]which were developed before the crystal structure for SHBG:T complexes were available. [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]These models assume that the two SHBG monomers behave identically in binding testosterone. Detailed experimental data show that the [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]"simplified linear model is erroneous."[/COLOR][/B] [URL='https://tru-t.org/evidence/#existing-calculators-are-inaccurate']References[/URL]. [*]The Endocrine Society has issued position statements which highlights the laboratory- and operator-dependent variability inherent in direct free testosterone measurements. For this reason they advocate for indirect "calculator" based methods [URL='https://tru-t.org/evidence#endocrine-society-position']References[/URL]. [*][B]The [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]TruT™ calculator[/COLOR] provides the ideal solution by [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]using measurements of [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]total testosterone[/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)], SHBG, [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]and[/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]albumin [/COLOR]to [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]calculate free testosterone[/COLOR] while taking into account [COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]the complex, non-linear allostery in SHBG's association with testosterone.[/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)] TruT™ is the only calculator available that uses this [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]more complex formulation.[/COLOR] [/B][URL='https://tru-t.org/evidence#trut-improvements']References[/URL] [/LIST] Forget relying on the older [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]calculated methods[/COLOR][/B] let alone [B][COLOR=rgb(26, 188, 156)]direct immunoassay and tracer analog techniques.[/COLOR]....[/B]either pay to have the [B][COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)]gold standard equilibrium dialysis[/COLOR][/B] or [B][COLOR=rgb(250, 197, 28)]ultrafiltration[/COLOR][/B] or better yet do not spend the money and simply use the newer calculated method [B][URL='https://tru-t.org/']TruT Free Testosterone Calculator by FPT[/URL][/B] People tend to go on and on and on about high SHBG resulting in low FT.....sure when TT levels are sub-par or low but when TT levels are high enough even with a higher SHBG one can still have healthy FT levels. Even with an SHBG of 70,80,90,100 as long as TT is high enough one can have a healthy FT......but even then TT will not need to be as high as we used to think due to [B][COLOR=rgb(44, 130, 201)]the complex, non-linear allostery in SHBG's association with testosterone.[/COLOR][/B] In your case although most would consider an SHBG of 72 nmol/L high seeing as your TT (trough) is absurdly high at 2889 ng/dL than your FT is 103.27 ng/dL (way too f***ing high) above the reference range of 16-31 ng/dL and keep in mind this is using the newer calculated method [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]TruT™[/COLOR] which provides the most accurate estimates for free testosterone.[/B] [ATTACH=full]7575[/ATTACH] If anything with an SHBG of 72 nmol/L you could get away with running a TT of 1000 ng/dL and your FT would be 31.07 ng/dL (top end of the reference range 16-31 ng/dL) [ATTACH=full]7583[/ATTACH] Most men do well with their FT in the 20-30 ng/dL range and others may need to venture into the 30-50 ng/dL range to see benefits.....but even than many would not need to run FT levels that high let alone be able to tolerate such high levels. Sure everyone is different and you have to find a level that is best for you within reason and as long as blood markers are in a healthy range and any potential side effects are avoided/minimized. Overall health is key! Now to put this in better perspective with an SHBG of 72 nmol/L you would only need to run a TT of 1500 ng/dL which would put your FT levels at a whopping 50.02 ng/dL (well over the top end of the reference range 16-31 ng/dL. [ATTACH=full]7576[/ATTACH] You are using Danazol to lower your SHBG so you should be able to use less T in order to achieve a healthy FT level.....we are not simply trying to hammer down your high SHBG with absurdly high androgen levels! No way even with your SHBG levels does one need to be running an absurdly high TT of 2889 ng/dL. You need to rethink this protocol through deeply! [/QUOTE]
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Testosterone Replacement, Low T, HCG, & Beyond
Testosterone Basics & Questions
Switching From Cream to Injectable T (subQ)
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